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Post by teddyballgame on May 1, 2010 20:10:54 GMT
Teddy I have no problem saying in public what I mentioned to irishmason. I told him about Jeff starting the group, that it is currently unrecognized, the lawsuit between the GL of Ohio and Halcyon, which ended up with Halcyon joining the GoUSA. I do admit to making a mistake when I said Halcyon left the GoUSA, but retracted that and corrected it with Euclid. Perhaps I may be wrong, but it is my understanding Euclid left because Jeff wants to make the GoUSA Co-masonic and Euclid was against it. Feel free to correct any of the above statements. No problem.... Unrecognized by whom? lol Some masons wanted to work the Rectified Scottish Rite and make it for Christian men only; the GOUSA is strictly secular and would never allow an order that had a Religious qualification for membership. Pretty simple:so when wanting to work that particular Rite, it was realized that it could not be worked under the Grand Orient banner. GOUSA made an agreement with GOdF about religion and Freemasonry and we were not going to go agaisnt it. Brother Jeff does not in anyway want to make the GOUSA Co-masonic. GOUSA has no problem being in Amity with Co-masonic groups, so there is no need for "another" co-masonic group. See how tales can be spread, and how they differ when heard from the horses mouth! ( I stand corrected of being guilty of this) What's nice is that it took 3 Lodges to come together and make it happen, not one guy. But sometimes one man may be the catalyst, but for the GOUSA to get started and have legitamacy, another Grand Body had to "back it", which the GOdF did. All masons of the 3 Lodges were regularly raised: some expelled without trials, some suspended and some just turned in their dues cards and walked away. As some do in Europe all the time. Leave one order for another best suited for them.
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Post by Okunnurleitandi on May 1, 2010 22:01:30 GMT
What happened to Traditional Cosmopolitan Masonry? Whatever that means.
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on May 1, 2010 23:26:56 GMT
The claims about Euclid trying to require anything to be Christian are, as I was told and understand it, false. If I'm incorrect, I hope someone from Euclid will clarify. A Brother from Euclid lodge told me this is a complete fabrication on the part of someone in the GOUSA. Just what I was told, and this is not intended to be an attack on anybody.
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Post by gousa1 on May 1, 2010 23:30:49 GMT
The terms "Traditional Cosmopolitan" and "Anglo-American" were first used at the University of California to differentiate the Masonic systems that had developed in France and continental Europe from those practiced in the UK and America. Both systems still exist and the terms remain in use.
Scholars don't consider either system "clandestine" or "irregular". These terms are viewed as a finger pointing game between different organizations. Thus, the above terms came into use to describe the two systems of Freemasonry.
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Post by gousa1 on May 1, 2010 23:40:22 GMT
I do not recollect anything about a Christian requirement.
At first the GOUSA allowed each lodge to choose which Rite it would work. In 2009 in was decided that this was creating too much confusion and the majority of the Council wanted to adopt the Modern Rite. Euclid Lodge did not like this change because it was restrictive of the freedoms their lodge had previously enjoyed. How they felt was completely understandable. My lodge was forced to change too, and its a real pain to learn a new ritual.
Euclid Lodge can return to the GOUSA, join the GWU or the GOdF. They have many options available to them above and beyond those mentioned.
Freemasons have an unalienable right to choose which system of Masonry best suits their needs.
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on May 1, 2010 23:47:01 GMT
I recall clearly a GOUSA member stating on the FREEMASONRY FOR DUMMIES website that there was a Christian requirement in one of Euclid's rites and cited that as the reason for the separation. I seriously am not attempting to start something, but wish to keep facts straight. I can only speak to what I've been told.
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Post by gousa1 on May 1, 2010 23:53:24 GMT
I believe there is some confusion here. Euclid Lodge worked the Ancient & Accepted Scottish Rite. It doesn't have a religious requirement.
A Triangle had its Warrant arrested earlier in the year over a dispute regarding the Rectified Rite.
Is this what you're talking about?
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on May 2, 2010 0:11:17 GMT
Here is the quote I read from GOUSA member Tom Coste on the Freemasonry for Dummies blog:
"When some felt that we(the GOUSA) had the right to start a "priory" that would over see a "Christian" only Rectified Rite, that went against our agreement with France."
If this is not true, as the brother from Euclid assures me it is NOT, there must be some reason for the discrepancy. For the reasons of making certain of this issue brought up earlier in this thread, we ought to try to find the truth about matters.
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Augur
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Post by Augur on May 2, 2010 0:13:15 GMT
Euclid wanted to work the Rectified Scottish Rite and make it for Christian men only; the GOUSA is strictly secular and would never allow an order that had a Religious qualification for membership. This seems to be the 'offending' statement in terms of the confusion, since as far as I'm aware there's no religious requirement for Euclid Lodge.
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Post by gousa1 on May 2, 2010 0:19:53 GMT
Yes, the Triangle matter is being confused with Euclid. As I said earlier, Euclid Lodge worked the Scottish Rite.
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on May 2, 2010 0:55:04 GMT
I still do not understand why the statement came from a GOUSA member to the contrary? In Euclid's case, it is possible without too many changes to join the G,L. of Michigan. Not that I think they do or do not wish to.
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Post by gousa1 on May 2, 2010 1:15:57 GMT
Maybe he got the issues confused? There was a lot of arguing and debating over whether or not to use a single Rite at the time.
Forming the GOUSA was not an easy process. We inherited Constitutions that were designed to run a 50,000 Mason Grand Orient that were unworkable by a small organization. It was like trying to run a small car dealership with the corporate By-Laws of General Motors. The GOdF worked with us to resolve these problems and put us in touch with other small Masonic bodies that had already resolved many of these problems. This helped tremendously.
To be honest the GOUSA didn't work well at first; much like the original Grand Lodge of England in 1717. It took them until 1723 to figure out how things worked best. We are just now reaching the point where things are operating smoothly.
Unfortunately, the GOUSA cannot be all things to all Masons. Some wanted a Co-Masonic order, while others wanted the freedom to practice old Rites and rituals, and there were others who wanted various different things. Little by little this all got distilled down into a system that satisfied the majority but let down those who wanted more.
It isn't a perfect world. We all do the best we can.
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on May 2, 2010 4:27:27 GMT
I don't know, as I was not there. He could be confused, I suppose. He certainly seems absolutely positive in his assertions. It seems that sort of confusion could have been easily rectified.
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Post by gousa1 on May 2, 2010 13:38:47 GMT
It's strange why an Anglo-American Mason would be more concerned over a Grand Orient lodge than helping your own brothers in distress. It is my understanding that several of your brothers are being expelled without due process in Arkansas as I write this. I guess it's a matter of priorities....
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Augur
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Post by Augur on May 2, 2010 14:04:23 GMT
It's strange why an Anglo-American Mason would be more concerned over a Grand Orient lodge than helping your own brothers in distress. It is my understanding that several of your brothers are being expelled without due process in Arkansas as I write this. I guess it's a matter of priorities.... And what, may I ask, makes you think anyone is 'more' or 'less' concerned about one of these things over the other? A misrepresentation was made about Euclid Lodge. It was corrected like any other factual error would be challenged here. Saying that doing so somehow diverts away energy from things you think might be more pressing is at the least diversionary if not a little insulting. I could easily reply with "Why are you here posting here when you could be feeding the homeless in your neighbourhood? Do you not care about your brother man? Where are your priorities?" Such an argument is total nonsense.
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Post by teddyballgame on May 2, 2010 14:16:08 GMT
Here is the quote I read from GOUSA member Tom Coste on the Freemasonry for Dummies blog: "When some felt that we(the GOUSA) had the right to start a "priory" that would over see a "Christian" only Rectified Rite, that went against our agreement with France."If this is not true, as the brother from Euclid assures me it is NOT, there must be some reason for the discrepancy. For the reasons of making certain of this issue brought up earlier in this thread, we ought to try to find the truth about matters. A misunderstanding between the triangle and lodge. I stand corrected......................... let's continue with the Topic at hand........................... There was a discussion of a group wanting to work a christian rectified rite, and I was aware of an indivual who was extremely "interested" in working it, if I attached other's to the individual 's interest, again, an apology.. It was not given all that attention, since Lodges have soveriegnty, most concern is in house.
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on May 2, 2010 16:32:53 GMT
I understand. My question was related more to the posting on the blog site where it was clearly claimed that the concern was a Christian-only Rite related to your initial statement. At any rate, I have little further to add to the initial topic unless someone else brings up more information. There is NO violation liberty when individuals agree of their own free will and can remove themselves from the 'contract' at any time. IF my GL was telling me how to vote or think, then there might be an issue. I wish to be a member of the body, which includes playing by the rules set forth. ALL bodies have rules that the members have to abide by if they wish to remain a member. Here is the quote I read from GOUSA member Tom Coste on the Freemasonry for Dummies blog: "When some felt that we(the GOUSA) had the right to start a "priory" that would over see a "Christian" only Rectified Rite, that went against our agreement with France."If this is not true, as the brother from Euclid assures me it is NOT, there must be some reason for the discrepancy. For the reasons of making certain of this issue brought up earlier in this thread, we ought to try to find the truth about matters. A misunderstanding between the triangle and lodge. I stand corrected......................... let's continue with the Topic at hand........................... There was a discussion of a group wanting to work a christian rectified rite, and I was aware of an indivual who was extremely "interested" in working it, if I attached other's to the individual 's interest, again, an apology.. It was not given all that attention, since Lodges have soveriegnty, most concern is in house.
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Post by hahya on May 2, 2010 17:58:55 GMT
It's strange why an Anglo-American Mason would be more concerned over a Grand Orient lodge than helping your own brothers in distress. It is my understanding that several of your brothers are being expelled without due process in Arkansas as I write this. I guess it's a matter of priorities.... Red Herring.
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Post by gousa1 on May 2, 2010 18:09:44 GMT
Organized religion has been the cause of millions of needless deaths and atrocities throughout human history. It usually begins with one man claiming to have spoken with God and then everyone else must rely on faith that he is revealing to them to truth as handed down by God. It is this faith in the unknown for which so many have died.
Through requiring a belief in the unknown Freemasonry involves itself unnecessarily in this game of Russian roulette. It opens the door to religions attacking Freemasonry as being its own religion and redefining their faith-held views of God. This, in my opinion, is madness.
Freemasonry needs to concern itself with building good character and moral integrity, along with a strong bond of brotherhood. God needs to be returned to the domain of religion and faith, and these left up to each individual to contemplate and decide for him/herself. No two people will ever agree on the nature of deity but they can find a common ground in their human condition.
This is why the Grand Orient accepts as an unalienable human right the freedom of conscience of all human beings when it comes to matters of faith and God.
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Post by lauderdale on May 2, 2010 18:47:30 GMT
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