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Post by sniffles on Feb 17, 2008 1:30:36 GMT
Here it is. I wasn't surprised to find it. It's sad but true. I've been saying it for years and nobody believed me. They thought I was pessimistic and ridiculous. I told people the future of freemasonry will be the internet; because people will just be way to busy with work and life to go toa real lodge and leave the convenient and comfort of their homes and computers. Internet lodges; internet initiations... self-initiations... all for a small fee... it's here: esotericfreemason.comI want to take a consensus to see who in this forum thinks this Grand Lodge is Regular or Irregular; and would you accept one of their initiates as a Brother? Personally, although I think this Grand Lodge is a pioneer in regards to what Freemasonry is becoming; I think at the moment they are "Irregular." Because to me it looks like a business which dupes innocent and ill informed gullible people out of their money; and doesn't offer real world lodges or meetings. It would be interesting to see what my Co-Masonic kinfolk here thinks of this Grand Lodge.
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Post by billmcelligott on Feb 17, 2008 1:38:26 GMT
If it is not recognised by my Grand Lodge then it is not regular.
it may be regular in its practices, I have no way of knowing.
It may become regular, but until I am informed that it is recognised then then I may not enter into Masonic visitation of any kind.
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Post by maximus on Feb 17, 2008 1:39:03 GMT
Scam.
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Post by mattjtayl on Feb 17, 2008 2:46:23 GMT
They call that masonry? How can they do any of the teachings? I mean how do you open a lodge. Or do initation. Or do any of the degree work. The passwords? The Grips?? The emblems and allegrical fiqures? I mean how can it mean anything to the candidate at all. I can't imagine freemasonry not conducted in a lodge, thats just not masonry.
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imakegarb
Member
One wee, sleeket, cowran, tim'rous beastie
Posts: 3,573
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Post by imakegarb on Feb 17, 2008 3:22:58 GMT
Though I most strenuously disagree with Bro. Bill, that only that recognized as regular by his GL is regular, I would have to say what you see online, even in Masonic Forums, will never be the work of Masonry. I think it is/will be more along the line of Masonic clubs and other such groups. And this certainly includes virtual lodges, which are no more than glorified chatrooms/forums and CANNOT be tyled (despite interesting and ill informed claims to the contrary). Also, what is regular is determined by a GL or other Supreme Body and is, strictly, internal. So I suppose a GL could set up its own forum and that forum could be classified as "regular" so far as that GL is concerned. However, I'm not aware of any online Masonic Forum that openly has the backing, or officially toes the line of any GL or other Supreme body. So I don't think the regular/irregular stupidity is relevant to online Masonry. You might want to read this; The Temple the Never Sleeps
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Post by sniffles on Feb 17, 2008 3:26:08 GMT
They call that masonry? How can they do any of the teachings? I mean how do you open a lodge. Or do initation. Or do any of the degree work. The passwords? The Grips?? The emblems and allegrical fiqures? I mean how can it mean anything to the candidate at all. I can't imagine freemasonry not conducted in a lodge, thats just not masonry. LOL! I know. Did you read their Questions and Answers section? It says their "Esoteric Masons" don't have to take any obligations "because obligations don't make a mason..." They also say that their "Masons" don't need to read, study, or be familiar with the masonic rituals... All it takes is the "Lifetime Initiation Fee" and they send you a thing where you can initiate yourself in the convenient of your own home, and Voila! you're an eMason! I agree with brother Max. Its a Scam. But do people actually fall for it?
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Post by sniffles on Feb 17, 2008 3:37:53 GMT
Though I most strenuously disagree with Bro. Bill, that only that recognized as regular by his GL is regular, I would have to say what you see online, even in Masonic Forums, will never be the work of Masonry. I think it is/will be more along the line of Masonic clubs and other such groups. And this certainly includes virtual lodges, which are no more than glorified chatrooms/forums and CANNOT be tyled (despite interesting and ill informed claims to the contrary). Also, what is regular is determined by a GL or other Supreme Body and is, strictly, internal. So I suppose a GL could set up its own forum and that forum could be classified as "regular" so far as that GL is concerned. However, I'm not aware of any online Masonic Forum that openly has the backing, or officially toes the line of any GL or other Supreme body. So I don't think the regular/irregular stupidity is relevant to online Masonry. You might want to read this; The Temple the Never Sleeps wow? there's even a book and a word for it? "E-Masonry?" what have we become as a people and society when we are too lazy... or impersonal to go out and be with other people in the real world? I'm sure "E-Masonry" will grow; but what will happen to our Masonry - flesh and stone Masonry? Are we actually looking at the future of Freemasonry? I hope not, but sadly our Lodges are losing members from old age, and over half the new young brothers don't ever come back.
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Post by sniffles on Feb 17, 2008 3:46:32 GMT
One positive and progressive thing the internet is actually doing in my personal opinion is it is blurring the lines between "regular" "irregular" and "clandestine" Masonry. At least in the future these labels will be just plain silly; but how do we compete with E-Masonry?
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Post by whistler on Feb 17, 2008 3:52:23 GMT
If it is not recognised by my Grand Lodge then it is not regular. it may be regular in its practices, I have no way of knowing. It may become regular, but until I am informed that it is recognised then then I may not enter into Masonic visitation of any kind. Bill by whose authority does your lodge considers itself regular - can it be certain that it is - from the outside it doesn't seem so.
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Post by maximus on Feb 17, 2008 4:08:47 GMT
The United Grand Lodge of England is considered the Mother Lodge of Freemasonry (even though we know good and well that Freemasonry came to England from Scotland ).
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Post by whistler on Feb 17, 2008 4:13:26 GMT
The United Grand Lodge of England is considered the Mother Lodge of Freemasonry (even though we know good and well that Freemasonry came to England from Scotland ). Only By some folk others know that Freemasonry comes from Egypt, Atlantis, and many other places long before the upstart "UGLE".
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imakegarb
Member
One wee, sleeket, cowran, tim'rous beastie
Posts: 3,573
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Post by imakegarb on Feb 17, 2008 8:45:27 GMT
It doesn't matter who was first. Under the concept of Masonic Inclusivity, which, so far as I know, all jurisdictions practice, each Obedience decides for itself what is, and isn't regular. These declarations carry no weight outside each Obedience's sphere of authority.
I realize that, for generations, many Freemasons have assumed it does. And have insulted Freemasons in other jurisdictions by calling them "irregular". However, as Thomas Paine wrote, "a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong gives it a superficial appearance of being right." This wrong isn't right. Never has been, nor ever will it be.
So, truly, it doesn't matter which jurisdiction came first.
As to E-Masonry blurring lines . . . there are no lines. E-Masons are just more likely to realize this. Others . . . well, this kind of blindness is often willful. And such as these often are right ugly to anyone who points their blindness out to then. So it's best to let them stumble on their own but continue to hope that, one day, they'll get a clue.
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Post by leonardo on Feb 17, 2008 8:54:42 GMT
I invite Sniffles and others to read the following link as it exposes the real reason behind the so called Grand Lodge of Ancient, Accepted and Esoteric Freemasons A.·. A.·. & E.·. F.·.www.masonicinfo.com/esotericmasons.htm
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Post by lauderdale on Feb 17, 2008 9:33:28 GMT
"The United Grand Lodge of England is considered the Mother Lodge of Freemasonry "
Not be me it isn't! I would reckon that many other Freemasons feel the same. It' s not even the oldest Grand Lodge as it was formed in 1813, the GL of Ireland and the GL of Scotland both pre-date it. UGLE is just another Grand Lodge, albeit nearly 200 years old, and a big one, but that's all folks.
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Post by maximus on Feb 17, 2008 11:04:25 GMT
"The United Grand Lodge of England is considered the Mother Lodge of Freemasonry "Not be me it isn't! I would reckon that many other Freemasons feel the same. It' s not even the oldest Grand Lodge as it was formed in 1813, the GL of Ireland and the GL of Scotland both pre-date it. UGLE is just another Grand Lodge, albeit nearly 200 years old, and a big one, but that's all folks. You left off the other part of what I wrote Bro. Steve. Notice the tounge in cheek icon at the end. The oldest existing ritual and records come from Scotland.
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Post by billmcelligott on Feb 17, 2008 13:20:15 GMT
Whistler The question was "I want to take a consensus to see who in this forum thinks this Grand Lodge is Regular or Irregular; and would you accept one of their initiates as a Brother?"
I answered that question. I made it clear the answer was from my perspective. The answer was accurate and truthful.
If however the question was how do you view this as Internet Freemasonry I would have given a different answer.
Imakegarb says "what is regular is determined by a GL or other Supreme Body and is, strictly, internal." which is also quite accurate.
sniffles says " One positive and progressive thing the internet is actually doing in my personal opinion is it is blurring the lines between "regular" "irregular" and "clandestine" Masonry.".
Matters not if we or you or the forum like the labels they are there, documented and agreed, stated policy. If you check the Co Masonic and Female Freemasonry it is there also. So there is no denying the words and definitions are a part of what Freemasonry is.
What may be questioned is how the words interpreted. we will all have out own opinions on that.
As far as internet masonry is concerned these words have little or no value, for if we just take the male / female divide, we have no way of knowing if 'penfold' is a man or a woman. We take Karens word she is a female. I say I am male, but who really knows.
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Post by mattjtayl on Feb 17, 2008 16:08:57 GMT
Well to answer the question whether I think E-Masonry is an irregular lodge or not , I would have to say irregular.
Would I accept one of their initaties as a brother?
No I would not accept one of their initiates as a mason.
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Post by lauderdale on Feb 17, 2008 16:26:53 GMT
The actually is an Internet Lodge, it is under the control of UGLE. I understand that to become a member of it one has to be already be an UGLE Mason or a member of a GL which they Recognise. They have a Tyled Section and do not depict Ceremonies on the Internet.
There are various Masonic Fora and I run one myself. Again these are for an interchange of ideas between Freemasons, mine is angled towards the more Esoterically minded Brethren, others take a different slant. None, as far as I know, attempt to Initiate Brethren over the Internet, that would be invalid and too reminiscent of One Day Classes to my way of thinking.
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Post by leonardo on Feb 17, 2008 16:39:44 GMT
This so called Grand Lodge of Ancient, Accepted and Esoteric Freemasons A.·. A.·. & E.·. F.·. is nothing more than a scam. Please read the following link for more details. Any who get involved with it are simply being taken for a ride. Be warned! www.masonicinfo.com/esotericmasons.htm
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Post by lauderdale on Feb 17, 2008 17:12:35 GMT
Thanks for the warning, Leo.
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