|
Post by devoutfreemason on Oct 13, 2007 15:45:35 GMT
Ok. The question remains--does this quote alone prove Freemasonry, or one of the many derivations influenced by the Craft, but not necessarily the same? Can you provide a link for your reference? On an interesting side-note, one can find several references to the uncarved block (e.g. the rough ashlar in our masonic nomenclature) in the Tao Te Ching by Lao Tsu. I'll try to find the pages in the copy I have. What this can possibly prove is that the art of building held a very special mysticism for many urban and building-based societies. This is one of the many sources of what we in the last 350-plus years have chosen to call Freemasonry, but it doesn't indicate that these references point specifically to the Freemasonry that was created in fairly modern times. Freemasonry is, by its nature, derivative and acts as a conduit for further derivation because its governmental and, perhaps, its philosophical system simply works. Therein, IMHO, lies an answer to our questions. My reference is a Chinese Freemason.
|
|
vtmason
Member
Running Dog Lackey
Posts: 251
|
Post by vtmason on Oct 14, 2007 0:51:25 GMT
Ok. The question remains--does this quote alone prove Freemasonry, or one of the many derivations influenced by the Craft, but not necessarily the same? Can you provide a link for your reference? On an interesting side-note, one can find several references to the uncarved block (e.g. the rough ashlar in our masonic nomenclature) in the Tao Te Ching by Lao Tsu. I'll try to find the pages in the copy I have. What this can possibly prove is that the art of building held a very special mysticism for many urban and building-based societies. This is one of the many sources of what we in the last 350-plus years have chosen to call Freemasonry, but it doesn't indicate that these references point specifically to the Freemasonry that was created in fairly modern times. Freemasonry is, by its nature, derivative and acts as a conduit for further derivation because its governmental and, perhaps, its philosophical system simply works. Therein, IMHO, lies an answer to our questions. My reference is a Chinese Freemason. Too funny.
|
|
|
Post by devoutfreemason on Oct 14, 2007 3:30:47 GMT
My reference is a Chinese Freemason. Too funny. Why?
|
|
|
Post by whistler on Oct 14, 2007 7:58:53 GMT
I have an old Copy of a Book titled "Who was Hiram Abbiff" in the back there is an advertisment for a book entitled "Hung Society" perhaps there is a Masonic Connection
|
|
Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
|
Post by Tamrin on Oct 14, 2007 8:39:31 GMT
Hung Society or the Society of Heaven and Earth, by J.S.M. Ward & W.G. Stirling. See also Wikipedia's Tiandihui entry and this article from the Australian Centre for Fraternal Studies. BTW, my experience with one of these groups has been peculiar in so far as it is both mixed and separate. Men and women are present, (of the members observing, the women are in the "North" and the men in the "South"), but most of the ceremonies are repeated (by the same Officers) for each sex. This tends to make for long sessions. They are delightful people but, while I cannot be too specific, I can say there is a LOT of kowtowing involved, much too much for my Western frame and, not knowing Cantonese, I miss a lot, although key points are translated for the benefit of the few Westerners present.
|
|
|
Post by negredo on Oct 15, 2007 15:59:44 GMT
Ok. The question remains--does this quote alone prove Freemasonry, or one of the many derivations influenced by the Craft, but not necessarily the same? Can you provide a link for your reference? On an interesting side-note, one can find several references to the uncarved block (e.g. the rough ashlar in our masonic nomenclature) in the Tao Te Ching by Lao Tsu. I'll try to find the pages in the copy I have. What this can possibly prove is that the art of building held a very special mysticism for many urban and building-based societies. This is one of the many sources of what we in the last 350-plus years have chosen to call Freemasonry, but it doesn't indicate that these references point specifically to the Freemasonry that was created in fairly modern times. Freemasonry is, by its nature, derivative and acts as a conduit for further derivation because its governmental and, perhaps, its philosophical system simply works. Therein, IMHO, lies an answer to our questions. My reference is a Chinese Freemason. Ok, but you derided another brother for giving a vague answer from a guy that knows a guy regarding this subject. Knowing a Chinese Freemason (from the F and AM strain or the Chines Freemasons?) says about as much as knowing a guy that knows a guy. That's hardly a specific source. The source I asked for was regarding the quotations. Where did they come from? Someone's mind? A book? I am interested so that's why I am trying to move beyond vagueness.
|
|
|
Post by mike on Oct 15, 2007 18:12:44 GMT
My reference is a Chinese Freemason. Seems a silly question but did you prove him as such? M
|
|
|
Post by hopefulmason on Oct 18, 2007 12:21:13 GMT
What is this picture above?
|
|
|
Post by xgx on Sept 22, 2011 2:07:48 GMT
I had to make an account just for this. Chinese freemasons have no connection what so ever to your traditional anglo-saxon masonic societies . Yes there isn't much KNOWN or CORRECT information on it, and we would prefer to keep it that way. If you try and keep digging for more information, you're not going to like what you discover. And as for Chinese Freemasons being Benevolent Societies? You guys might want to research the origin of the 洪門, 洪青, Tongs like the 協勝 or 安良, and the people involved with these types of groups. (Raymond Chow, Wing Yeung Chan, Robin Chee, Johnny Eng) They may not portray all, but just research the history and who the 'original chinese freemasons" are
|
|
|
Post by huw on Sept 23, 2011 1:08:29 GMT
There's a long history of many different oath-bound societies in China, over many centuries. Anyone who's read anything at all about Chinese history is well aware of this.
Various such societies have served various purposes, and still do. Practically anything you can imagine an oath-bound society being about, there's been an example of such a society sometime in China. There have been benevolent clubs, philosophical societies, religious sects, professional associations, trade unions, insurance mutuals, investment companies, revolutionary political parties, counter-revolutionary political parties, organised crime gangs, and so on ... all structured as oath-bound societies. Some of these groups have served multiple roles simultaneously. At some points in Chinese history, an oath-bound society has even been the government of the country. It's a deeply-engrained feature of Chinese culture to have oath-bound societies, operating with varying degrees of secrecy according to the nature of their purposes.
When Chinese culture meets Anglo-Saxon culture, and a Chinese chap is looking for an English word to describe an oath-bound society, someone is inevitably going to say "oh, you mean like the freemasons?" So of course, some of these organisations use the word "freemasons" in the English-language version of their door-sign, and this has been true for at least a couple of centuries, so it's now well-established usage.
Some of the current Chinese cultural organisations using the description "freemasons" may indeed have some coincidental resemblance to Western freemasonry. Others might be something very different or even quite opposite to what westerners understand as freemasonry. I suppose the most antithetical types of oath-bound society (e.g. criminal gangs) wouldn't be so likely to put a sign on the door, but don't rely on that: the On Leong and Hip Sing tongs (referred to in Chinese by user xgx above) both ran public offices as well as violent street gangs and drug operations ... and both are still around.
I suspect that a stranger asking nosey questions by way of "research" would generally not be made welcome. Maybe if you can read Chinese and speak at least one version of it fluently, then you might get a polite reception. If not, I'd recommend minding your own business.
H.G.W.,
Huw
|
|
|
Post by nycfma on Feb 10, 2014 4:09:55 GMT
The two people above xgx and HUW are both correct. The "Chinese Freemasons" that you speak of in this thread have no real connection what so ever to traditional freemasons. It is just the word. In fact, the group that is being referred to as Chinese Freemasons, is the Boston Hung Ching youth group, and the New York Hung Ching Tong youth group. The Chinese name Hung Ching, is what is being referred to as Chinese Freemason, but the literal translation of the characters Hung and Ching means Youth of the Hung. Ching means youth, and Hung refers to the Hongmen from the Heaven and Earth Society. The criminal Triads of Hong Kong, as well as traditional Chinese gangs trace all their origins back to the Hongmen, as do the benevolent societies. The Hung Ching groups are actually more fronts, or youth recruitment. They all hail to a much larger group called the Hung Mun. Hung Mun is what was spawned from the Hongmen. That is where the rituals and oaths originate from. You may not find where the other branches are as only the Boston and the NY chapters are using the name Hung Ching. They are the two oldest chapters, but they have chapters across the globe. Each chapter holds annual dinners. The last annual NY chapter dinner had chapters from Boston, Puerto Rico, San Francisco, and Chicago as well as the big bosses of the Hung Mun attending. Boston and NY chapters just happen to have the tighest relationship because of how close they are in distance compared to the other chapters. Some of the chapters go by less obvious Hung related names, specifically the San Francisco goes by the name Ghee Kong Tong. They are also not ethnically exclusive. There have been several members that are not of Chinese decent. One extremely notable member is Sifu James Cama (Italian decent) who teaches the Hung Ching several martial arts forms. www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAhkho7spKQwww.youtube.com/watch?v=j97nVDkHRlU - new years celebration in NYC by the Hung Ching www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ggw1y2nmIE - Boston group www.youtube.com/watch?v=llGEnrMMqxQ - Hung Mun www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ger4Etej78 - Edminton Canada Hung Mung Chapter Plus Mr. xGx up there is most likely a member because the name xgx refers to the gang member affiliates. They use the name xgx so there isnt as obvious traces to Hung Ching since the image of Hung Ching is a legitimate youth group.
|
|