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Post by taylorsman on Jun 21, 2005 23:07:00 GMT
Stewart, in the past I have criticised you for saying "But I may be wrong" .
On this matter on what you have posted about Regular Freemasons who suffered at the hands of the Nazis I have to say "YOU MOST DEFINITELY ARE!"
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Post by Thegnostic on Jun 23, 2005 21:30:54 GMT
All,
Well, Gnostic has finally made it back to the forum and catching up on the topics.
Cora, You will learn far more in co-masonry and indeed Women only FMY then you ever would if you were able to join UGLE. I have read the masonic Journal "The Gavel" produced by Lady Freemasons and learnt more from that then 28 issues of Freemasonry Today and 300 issues of the square put together. I really am thinking on joining co-masonry myself.
Gnostic "My mind must be free to learn all I can about me"
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bod
Member
UGLE - MM (London), MMM RAM(Middx), OSM (London)
Posts: 1,296
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Post by bod on Jun 24, 2005 10:47:21 GMT
All, I really am thinking on joining co-masonry myself. Gnostic "My mind must be free to learn all I can about me" Really? That would be a gain for them, would you find it difficult to break the ties you have with the friends you have made in 'our' form of freemasonry? Some would not understand why you have come to such a decision. Personally I wouldn't treat you any differently, altho I wouldn't be able to invite you to any lodge meetings, but other than that no change....
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Post by taylorsman on Jun 24, 2005 10:50:42 GMT
You would still be a Brother as far as I am concerned! God be with you in whatever you decide to do.
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Post by munkholt on Jun 24, 2005 13:34:03 GMT
Best wishes for your Masonic future, wahtever path it follows. From a slightly selfish point of view, I think it would be really interesting to hear the experiences of one who have tried both "flavours". I have read the masonic Journal "The Gavel" produced by Lady Freemasons Sounds good. Would anybody here be able to help me procure copies of this magazine?
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Post by ingo on Jun 24, 2005 13:49:07 GMT
Stewart, Pike and others I did not write that only co-masons fought against the nazis! I wrote that the so-called irregular masonry in Germany fought against them - that also means male-only masons of GLs which had fraternal relations with GOdF! For consequence these GLs had to stop their activities in 1993, while the so-called "Old Prussian GLs" which united about 70-80% of male-only masonry in Germany tried to establish good relations with the Nazis. It is a fact that the Bro. Hjalmar Schacht was Hitlers minister of economy and planed the financial support of Hitlers way to war. It is a fact that the last GM of the largest male-only, old-prussian GL Bro. Werner Bode (it shakes me to name him Bro:!!!) was a friend of Adolf Hitler. It is a fact, that the old-prussian GLs debated the changes of ritual from a christian-oriented humanity into anti-jewish, pseudo-germanic attitudes. It is a fact that, the old-prussian GLs of Germany tried to expell every jewish brother long before 1933 before jewish brethren were considered non-german!!! After WW2 the upcoming male-only masonry in Germany took over the fact that some male-only masons were anti-nazi in 1933-1935 and before. What do we call this? A buy-out! A company takes over another one when the other one is weak enough. None of the former GMs of the irregular masonry survived the "Third Reich". None! So you are right, masons suffered in CCs. But as the mormons do it every day, they hire you and you can baptise your ancestors into mormons - after their deaths! They are made mormons "at sight". ;D So to say male-only masonry in germany made irregular anti-nazi masonry regular "at sight" after WW2 and gave itself a anti-nazi attitude, which it never had durimg the "Third Reich!" If you want further information, just ask German brethren after the books of Bro. Helmut Neuberger "Winkelmaß und Hakenkreuz". Just buy it, translate it, read it, and you will understand.
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Post by taylorsman on Jun 25, 2005 8:01:06 GMT
I accept that , like many Institutions, some of Regular Freemasonry tried to come to an accommodation with the Nazis. The same thing happened with the Lutheran Church. Some went along with the Nazis and indeed there was a Reichs Bishop and they even had a logo with the Swastika centered on the Cross. However there was also the "Confessing Church" who would NOT accept Hitler and Nazisim and many went to the Death Camps as a result as did many Freemasons , Regular and Irregular who also rejected Hitler. For an example watch the wartime film "Pastor Hall" by the Boulting Brothers about a German Clergyman who stands firm and is sent to a Concentration Camp and untimately pays with his life.
For reference see the following A movement took fire to nationalize the church under a single Reichs-bishop. This was actually a trick to bring the church under Nazi control. In May, 1933, the constitution for the unified national church was produced. The so-called "German Christians" elected Ludwig Müller, a fervent Nazi, to head the church. In July, two restrictions were placed on the clergy. A clergyman (1) must be politically reliable and (2) must accept the superiority of the Aryan race. Hundreds of clergy accepted these demands.
A small group of church leaders did not. They openly opposed those German Christians who did accept the government's terms. The dissidents insisted that the church must obey Christ apart from political influence. In September, 1933, Martin Niemoeller sent a letter to all German pastors, inviting them to join a Pastor's Emergency League to oppose the unified church. Karl Barth and Dietrich Bonhoeffer were among those who joined him. In October, Niemoeller asked pastors to take a pledge to be bound by the scripture and the old confessions of faith.
To see the actions of the Nazis against Freemasonry which they considered as part of the "Jewish-Bolshevist-Masonic" Conspiracy to rule the World, look to what happend to the Masonic Temple in Jersey in the Channel Islands. The Gestapo had lists of Lodges and their Members to seize if they had occupied Britain, and the Gauleiter Designate, Dr Sixt, was a keen anti -Mason and would have applied the De-Masonification policy with zeal and assiduity. The Nazis considered Britain as the fountainhead of World Freemasonry.
So rather than mock those Masons who buckled under the terrible threats from the Nazis to themselves and their families, (ask yourself, would you have resisted faced with beatings, confiscation of property, being sent to a Camp and untimately the Gas Chamber?) let us remember those from ALL sections of Freemasonry, Reguar, Irregular, Male, Female, Co-Masons and reflect on why many of us wear the Forget-me-not in our lapels
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Post by Proton on Jun 25, 2005 9:02:39 GMT
Interestingly the Grand Lodge of Scotland Website has a reference to Holocaust Memorial Day for Freemasons. 27 January. It is known that the Jews were the largest group to suffer in WW2, and we have periodic reminders of this, but a number of us are ignorant that there were other groups that suffered too. These include: Freemasons, Communists, the Handicapped, and Gypsies. Even German people were imprisoned if they did not conform. The site is located at : www.grandlodgescotland.com/glos/Holocaust_Memorial_Day/index.htmIt is an interesting read, I do not know of any other sites on the web that make reference to these other groups that suffered terribly in WW2. Proton
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Post by taylorsman on Jun 25, 2005 9:27:35 GMT
Thanks Bro Proton and thanks to the G L of Scotland who run the best of the British Grand Lodge Websites. Perhaps not as full of Techno bells and whistles as some of the US ones nor having the "Aircraft Boarding Music" of a certain English Provincial Website I could mention, but very informative and user friendly. What a contrast to the lost opportunity and disappointment that is the London Metropolitan website (fly fishing or car rally anyone? but don't mention Time and Location of Lodge Meetings or other trivia like that!)
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Post by ingo on Jun 27, 2005 11:20:27 GMT
"Even German people were imprisoned if they did not conform."
Yes, that is right. It might not be known that during 1933-45 about 1 Million German were imprisioned prisoners in CCs for days, weeks, months or years though they were not jews, but socialists, christians... whatever.
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