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Post by markwalt on Dec 18, 2006 3:50:52 GMT
Hi there,
I'm an Entered Apprentice mason at a UGLE blue lodge, but I'm interested in possibly making a change to LDH before I get in too far.
I suspect that I may be required to take an oath not to fraternize with "illegal" lodges by the third degree, and if that's true, I'd like to have my mind made up about co-masonry before it comes to that.
In any event, I have a couple of questions for co-masons: - do they recognize degrees from non-LDH lodges? Could I attend lodge as an EA?
- If so, I would assume that some sort of investigation would have to be made to determine that I'm actually a mason. I'm wondering if this could be done without my imparting anything "secret" (signs, grips, tokens) since I promised not to do that?
I suppose that, since I intend to respect my obligation, I'll probably just have to go down there and talk to co-masons without being part of a tiled meeting, but I'd sure like to sit in a meeting first.
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Post by maat on Dec 18, 2006 4:35:49 GMT
Dear Markwalt
I am LDH and I would have to say that I recommend that you stay where you have started your journey, that is, with your Mother Lodge.
There are advantages and disadvantages with belonging to either UGLE or LDH, but you have taken your first step upon your Masonic journey and it would be unfair, and perhaps unwise, to make a change so soon. Fidelity.
Settle in, learn all you can, become all you can and if some years further on you feel that something may be missing or whatever - start making further enquiries then.
You cannot visit a Lodge who is working without proving yourself a Mason. You can keep your rank if you wish to change over later, so far as I know. You can visit LDH when the Lodge is not open - speak to CoraB or Steve Foley re this if you are interested at any time. The Lauderdale Ritual is not too distant from your own by all accounts - but we are esoterically inclined... seek out the hidden wisdom and meanings to the symbols and allegories.
This is just my personal opinion. Maybe others have some differing advice to offer you.
Maat
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Post by taylorsman on Dec 18, 2006 5:17:49 GMT
Mark, please send me a PM on this matter, I will be delighted to help you in any way I can. BTW where are you located?
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Post by markwalt on Dec 18, 2006 5:37:16 GMT
Maat, thank you for your advice. I'll give your words a lot of thought.
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Post by whistler on Dec 18, 2006 6:35:49 GMT
Hi Mark, You are probably aware of many things UGLE Freemasonry offer - . You now wonder what LDH - or an Comasonic Lodge has to offer. I can tell you from my knowledge We offer far less social and fund raising activities, Most (not all) Co-masons are very interested in the esoteric reason for everything within our Lodges. More importantly we consider Gender has no part in our Masonry - We all progress through our lodge ranks by virtue of "growth". Our progress from invitation to Master Mason is a lot slower than most Malecraft lodges - In my lodge it takes between 2 and 3 years from initiation to Master Mason. We are happy to have Malecraft Visitors - Malecraft Lodges do not approve for their members to visit us . Mark before you progress too far with the UGLE do a little research into Co-masonry Have a look at these two web sites. www.droit-humain.org/and comasonic.net/See for yourself the approach Co-masonry takes to Freemasonry Then you can make an informed decision which feels right to you. It would be sad to commit yourself to a direction that you are not comfortable with. Good Luck with your search HGW
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Post by billmcelligott on Dec 18, 2006 6:59:03 GMT
Is it a question of what any group has to offer?
You should be asking Mark , what can you offer to the Group you join.
I am sorry if this sounds a bit blunt , but its a soap box I jump on from time to time. Concern yourself with what you can do for your Brothers and Sisters Mark, not what they can do for you. As soon as someone says , whats in it for me, as far as I can see your heading in the wrong direction.
Freemasonry - and it does not matter if its UGLE or LDH, it's about 'YOU' creating the best 'YOU' that you can.
That journey as Maat has already pointed out is about your commitment and your resolve, if you have just got to EA and your having second thoughts, I am concerned as to why you have not been mentored so far.
If you were LDH Maat would have the same concern I am sure.
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Post by taylorsman on Dec 18, 2006 7:35:45 GMT
Bro Mark I was 18 years in UGLE before I made the change to LDH. I must say that I am far happier now that I have.
I feel Bro Whistler, who was a great help to me in guiding my thoughts on this matter, has summed it up beautifully and I would follow his lead. There is no point on going too far down the wrong road if you feel that your destination is elsewhere and I would mention the old adage "First unto thine own self be true" and to follow your Conscience as I have done in this matter.
One small point does puzzle me though. You state that you are an EA in an UGLE Lodge yet you are in Washington State USA as far as your IP address is concerned. Did you join an UGLE Lodge in England then move to the USA? Also "Blue" lodge is an American expression seldom used in England where "Craft" Lodge would be the equivalent.
Do as you feel is right and don't stay with something in which you do not feel in Harmony. Look at the URLs that Bro Whistler has given and I will find you that of LDH in the USA if you wish.
Whatever course you take, I give you my Fraternal Best Wishes.
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imakegarb
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Post by imakegarb on Dec 18, 2006 8:26:13 GMT
Hi Mark!!
I'm an EA myself so my answers should be observed in that light (Ma'at's very, very good point likewise observed).
We have "affiliated" brothers who remain in their jurisdictions and attend with us. We also have brothers who come to us from other jurisdictions and don't remain affiliated with their former lodges. These are by their choice. I know of no BB in my jurisdiction who was encouraged to leave their prior affiliation.
I've been told, variously, that these brethren are given the option to begin the degrees over again or to journey as they are. As an EA, though, I would think you'd be encouraged to begin again.
As an EA, I've promised not to impart the s*ns, gr*ps and t*kens unless properly called upon and only to those whom I know to be Freemasons. I assume you've promised the same and are willing to undergo such an examination when properly called upon. If you don't believe Co-Masons are Freemasons, then *I'd* say you've got some issues to resolve.
Maybe. But, the above observation being what it is, I'd wonder what your goal is.
And Steve's observations about your IP address and other details . . . I'm not suggesting anything with what I'm about to key in, just making my own observation . . . my jurisdiction does not well endure eavesdroppers and cowans. Such as these should tred very lightly.
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imakegarb
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Post by imakegarb on Dec 18, 2006 8:38:53 GMT
BTW, I live in Oregon. So far as I know, the only Co-Masonic bodies in Oregon and Washington are those affiliated with my jurisdiction. Just thought I'd mention that
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Post by whistler on Dec 18, 2006 9:24:29 GMT
Is it a question of what any group has to offer? You should be asking Mark , what can you offer to the Group you join. I Sounds like JFK though in the case of a beginner to Freemasonry - How can a neophyte have any idea what the group might want.
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Post by billmcelligott on Dec 18, 2006 14:41:46 GMT
Correct Whistler , JFK.
Why would it matter if the person is a newbie, learning starts long before Freemasonry comes along. I am sure he would have heard this phrase many times.
If the newbie learns this lesson and no more then our living has not be totally futile.
Interesting aside of the Oath taken by every president of the Untited States.
Couple of clips: I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter: So help me God.
I do solemnly swear (or affirm), that I will administer justice without respect to persons, and do equal right to the poor and to the rich, and that I will faithfully and impartially discharge and perform all the duties incumbent on me, according to the best of my abilities and understanding, agreeably to the Constitution, and laws of the United States. So help me God.
Makes you wonder don't it.
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Post by taylorsman on Dec 18, 2006 15:10:03 GMT
Not really Bro Bill. Several of the "Founding Fathers" (of the USA) were Freemasons and isn't the street pattern of their Capital City, Washington DC , laid out in such a manner as to show Masonic Symbols when viewed from the air?
Indeed the All Seeing Eye appears on their banknotes and many other Masonic Sybols abound in the USA..
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Post by billmcelligott on Dec 18, 2006 16:53:45 GMT
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Dec 18, 2006 20:12:21 GMT
Bro. markwalt
Having as yet little knowledge of Masonic terminology could you have been led by a misunderstanding of postings here to refer to your current governing body as 'UGLE?'
UGLE is a particular Grand Lodge. Perhaps you meant to describe your Grand Lodge as being 'regular,' in the sense that it is in amity (good relations / mutual recognition) with the mainstream of 'malecraft' jurisdictions, within which many see recognition by UGLE as being something of touchstone of regularity.
In your deliberations I agree with those who recommend that you follow you conscience. If you choose to change, there may be less disruption in doing so sooner rather than later (before you become too embedded).
Personally, I do not think that at this early stage of your Masonic career, you should be distracted by the recommendation that you ask what you have to offer the group rather than visa versa. People typically join groups for their own reasons and eventually find they can contribute, each in there own way. I certainly didn't join to do secretarial paperwork, etc. However, when the need arose, I was happy to so, as by then, the various groups' interests had become mine.
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Post by whistler on Dec 18, 2006 20:15:36 GMT
Tamrin you are correct often in these discussions UGLE becomes a defacto name for Male only Lodges - that is why I often and prefer to use the terms "Malecraft and Co-Mason
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jmd
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Post by jmd on Dec 18, 2006 21:49:30 GMT
imakegarb has already addressed the issue as to giving the grips, signs and tokens when properly called on. So if visiting a Masonic Lodge, it would be expected that you will be tested if wishing to enter the Lodge.
The physical layout of the Lodge will be basically as you are already used to - in part depending more on your local Lodge and its GL than on LDH. In my case, the local LDH setup is very similar to my own, and both very distinct to LDH in, for example, Paris (so LDH has similar variety within its own international jurisdiction that Male Craft likewise has).
As an EA, perhaps it may be worth knowing that various jurisdictions do not view unaccompanied intervisitations highly (even within Lodges under the same GL).
On the other hand, if there is a strong inner call that perhaps you have chosen a constitution that suits you less than expected, do consider the move.
Personally, and irrespective, I would suggest that it takes about three years for many to really sense into what is being offered by any and all forms of Freemasonry. Are you willing to give it a chance, even if making the move?
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Post by mike on Feb 25, 2007 16:00:19 GMT
I'm an Entered Apprentice mason at a UGLE blue lodge, but I'm interested in possibly making a change to LDH before I get in too far. In the UGLE we do not actually use the term "Blue Lodge" (although I understand it is common in the US) referring to it as a Craft Lodge or just a Lodge. I suspect that I may be required to take an oath not to fraternize with "illegal" lodges by the third degree, and if that's true, I'd like to have my mind made up about co-masonry before it comes to that. If you've been Initiated you have already promised to abide by the rules of Grand Lodge which do forbid you from attending meetings of un-recognised Lodges. In any event, I have a couple of questions for co-masons: First and just balance up your knowledge, here in the UK we have two different Constitutions of Co-masonry one being the, well known, LDH www.droit-humain.org/uk/ and the other being the split-away Grand Lodge for Men and Women www.grandlodge.org.uk/ . The GL4M&W is sort of what you would expect if the UGLE and the OWF & HFAF were to combine (which they don't want to do by the way). These two Orders do not recognise each other and cannot intervisit. I suppose that, since I intend to respect my obligation, I'll probably just have to go down there and talk to co-masons without being part of a tiled meeting, but I'd sure like to sit in a meeting first There is nothing to stop you meeting (outside of the Lodge) with Co or women Masons I know a few myself and lovely people they are too. M
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giovanni
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Post by giovanni on Feb 25, 2007 16:07:01 GMT
Hi there, I'm an Entered Apprentice mason at a UGLE blue lodge, but I'm interested in possibly making a change to LDH before I get in too far. WHY?
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