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Post by thesixthnapoleon on Jul 21, 2007 19:35:47 GMT
When one comes down to the core principles of discrimination, I am not at all sure how gender and race are so different. This is what I would like to hear—A defense of the present system based on principles and especially on Masonic principles, rather than on gut feelings, comfort zones and individual preferences. I'm curious - just because I want to understand your viewpoint better - how you view functions such as "women only business networking events" which I've described above. Do you find them discriminatory? I'm only asking because I'm curious and want to understand your philosophy better, please don't think I'm trying to goad or bait you.
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Jul 21, 2007 21:43:23 GMT
I'm curious - just because I want to understand your viewpoint better - how you view functions such as "women only business networking events" which I've described above. Do you find them discriminatory? I wish I could look forward to a time when there would be no need for such functions—A time when the very suggestion of them would seem odd and when people look back at our time and wonder, “What were they thinking?” (I entertain no hope of that happening in my lifetime). Until then, there is the principle of Affirmative Action, which allows for positive discrimination in the case of disadvantaged groups.
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Tony Grimwood
Member
Asst. Steward, Lodge Howick No. 314
Posts: 190
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Post by Tony Grimwood on Jul 21, 2007 22:33:19 GMT
[Until then, there is the principle of Affirmative Action, which allows for positive discrimination in the case of disadvantaged groups. The whole affirmative action thing has always made me nervous. No matter how hard I think about it, I can't get my head around the idea of "positive" discrimination. <anecdote>I spent a number of years working as a technician at a university school of music, and the first year I was there I was called upon to record a performance examination where the candidate was a member of an ethnic minority. After the candidate had finished his performance and left the room, the three examiners discussed the outcome. One of them said (something like) "we should take into account his cultural background." I remember thinking, at the time "I can't believe I heard that! The instrument he plays doesn't care about his cultural background, and nor does J.S. Bach! He can either play the damned thing to the required standard or he can't."</anecdote> This kind of "positive" discrimination is very much a two-edged sword and in cases like this a more worthy candidate might well be denied advancement as a result. In the same vein of thought, I don't imagine that TGAOTU gives a rat's rectum about gender. FWIW, my take on this issue is that the various GLs under discussion here should at least recognise each other's 'regularity' and allow intervisitation, should it be agreed to at the level of the individual lodge. That way, lodges that wish to maintain a male or female only stance would be able to do so. If any change is to happen, it will have to be gently done and it will take time. I don't expect to see it in my lifetime, but I will add my voice to the growing number who are calling for it. Tony
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Jul 21, 2007 23:08:58 GMT
Thank you Bro. Tony,I too have reservations concerning applications of the principle of Affirmative Action and the Wikipedia link raises some of the difficulties. Nevertheless, its advantages hopefully outweigh its disadvantages. The example you gave reminds me of having read of an orchestra which had considerable success in addressing a gender imbalance by having auditions conducted behind a screen, to conceal the musicians' gender from their judges.
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Post by leonardo on Sept 17, 2007 19:51:13 GMT
Learning a foreign language also opens access to its mentality that may significantly differ from one's own, e.g. in sensitivity and perception. Agree wholeheartedly. I do actually speak and read French to a fairly high standard and have read many books originally written in that language. I also read some of the same books translated into English but found many of them lacking in comparison - the depth wasn't the same.
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Sept 17, 2007 20:45:50 GMT
Agree wholeheartedly. I do actually speak and read French to a fairly high standard and have read many books originally written in that language. I also read some of the same books translated into English but found many of them lacking in comparison - the depth wasn't the same. Among the many things I would like to learn is to be reasonably fluent in another language, quite possibly French, especially as Brenda and I are planning to visit Paris in a couple of years. The case made in this discussion was that having to learn French, on an English language forum, so as to understand a point being made, is a bit over the top. In such cases, the poster may be able to summarise the point in English.
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Post by leonardo on Sept 20, 2007 18:11:59 GMT
Agree wholeheartedly. I do actually speak and read French to a fairly high standard and have read many books originally written in that language. I also read some of the same books translated into English but found many of them lacking in comparison - the depth wasn't the same. Among the many things I would like to learn is to be reasonably fluent in another language, quite possibly French, especially as Brenda and I are planning to visit Paris in a couple of years. The case made in this discussion was that having to learn French, on an English language forum, so as to understand a point being made, is a bit over the top. In such cases, the poster may be able to summarise the point in English. If you wish to learn a lot of French, or any language for that matter, in a short space of time I would recommend the Pimsleur Language courses. I didn't learn French in this way, I lived in France for 5 years in the 1980s, but I did learn to speak German and Polish using their courses.
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Post by parisfred on Sept 21, 2007 10:16:00 GMT
The freedom that european - continental- GLs members have is for a large part due to the fact that UGLE rejected the GOdF in 1877. This created a dynamics, a new masonic culture, I live in a place where all the family of lodges : masculine, mixed, feminine recognise each other and we have intervisit rights.
the "regular" guys are a small group and no one want to convert or change them, everything is fine as culturally, socially, the freemasonry is seen as a progressive society for men and women.
From what I read, what I discover with our "mainstream" brethren, we have common roots but the difference are now too important to imagine that we have a common language.
Philipp, why do you want to take this fortress ? This is a waste of time, if freemasonry still have a valuable lesson to teach, if there is a freemasonry for this century, it can be done out of existing structure.
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Post by gaslight on Sept 21, 2007 14:04:04 GMT
If you wish to learn a lot of French, or any language for that matter, in a short space of time I would recommend the Pimsleur Language courses. I didn't learn French in this way, I lived in France for 5 years in the 1980s, but I did learn to speak German and Polish using their courses. OK, I'll bite. Polish?
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Post by leonardo on Sept 21, 2007 14:08:24 GMT
If you wish to learn a lot of French, or any language for that matter, in a short space of time I would recommend the Pimsleur Language courses. I didn't learn French in this way, I lived in France for 5 years in the 1980s, but I did learn to speak German and Polish using their courses. OK, I'll bite. Polish? Yes, I learned some Polish for a visit to Poznan in Poland that was suppose to take place last July. Sadly that trip never took place but at least I can speak some pretty good Polish
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Post by gaslight on Sept 22, 2007 0:04:51 GMT
Yes, I learned some Polish for a visit to Poznan in Poland that was suppose to take place last July. Sadly that trip never took place but at least I can speak some pretty good Polish I visited Poznan many, many years ago. That was in the drab days of the Communist regime. I'd love to go back again. Your message prompted me to revisit some old Polish Masonic links in my bookmarks. I've posted comments on a new Polish Masonic Sites thread.
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Post by leonardo on Sept 22, 2007 7:32:53 GMT
Thanks Gaslight. I have posted some remarks there.
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