Tamrin
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Nosce te ipsum
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Post by Tamrin on Sept 10, 2007 8:31:43 GMT
I still have some concerns about the participation of partners, when/where the partners are not suitable for Freemasonry nor Freemasonry for them. Has nothing to do with their value as a person, but rather their inclination towards the tenets of Freemasonry.
I have met some mason's wives who would not be not suited to Freemasonry, but who, because they know other mason's wives, might be inclined to join for that reason alone. And it is pointless to say that they would have to prove they are good material because history shows that peer pressure is a mighty heavy load, many buckle under the pressure and rules are softened. That is all I am saying.
Maat Bro. Maat,I acknowledge you sincerely hold these concerns. However, I suggest Co-Masonry, as a fairly 'esoterically oriented' example, and the OES, as a fairly 'socially oriented' example, should more than satisfy the concerns of most others, about any such involvement on the continuum between these two examples, let alone the norms regarding such involvement in the wider community.
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imakegarb
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Post by imakegarb on Sept 10, 2007 16:09:00 GMT
I have expressed how I genuinely feel, if you wish to maintain that my heart-felt position is 'evil,' that is your choice, but please accept that I not unnaturally consider that, in doing so, you have personally maligned me. I do not accept it. I continue to know I have done no such thing. No more than you, in not agreeing with my position, have in any way personally maligned me. However, I am glad you find yourself able to agree to disagree with other BB. And that your inability to do so is not confined to me. I am grieved you reject my commendation of you on this point but I remain convinced it *is* commendable.
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Sept 10, 2007 16:52:14 GMT
I do not accept it. I continue to know I have done no such thing. No more than you, in not agreeing with my position, have in any way personally maligned me. The difference is that I have not described your position as 'evil.' Had I done so, it would not be meaningful in relation to your position in and of itself (which might however be wrong or bad in relation to a particular goal). It would only have been meaningful in relation to the intention with which it was held and thus in relation to the person holding it. 'Evil' is a word, I suggest ought only be applied very judiciously. By way of a hypothetical example: Where a judge sentences a member of an ethnic minority to prison, the verdict may be bad for the individual's liberty and good for public safety: Whether or not it was 'evil' would depend on whether the judge was governed by a sense of justice or swayed by a sense of prejudice. However, I am glad you find yourself able to agree to disagree with other BB. And that your inability to do so is not [sic] confined to me. I am grieved you reject my commendation of you on this point but I remain convinced it *is* commendable. I repeat: Mine is not a matter of disagreement over our respective positions. I ACCEPT THAT YOU DISAGREE WITH MY POSITION. My objection is to your use of the word 'evil' in this context.
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imakegarb
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Post by imakegarb on Sept 10, 2007 17:22:33 GMT
(sigh)
Fine.
I have every right to believe a position evil. And I am quite able to maintain this belief without insulting anyone, including a person who holds this position. For that may be your position but that does not make you evil. I've said this, publicly, a number of times.
That *you* feel an insult where none is intended is something I cannot help.
*I* have no issue with agreeing to disagree with you on this matter. You, clearly, continue to find yourself unable to agree to disagree with me. You are, however, able to agree to disagree with others. For that, I remain glad.
That's all you'll be hearing from me.
Peace.
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Post by leonardo on Sept 10, 2007 17:24:44 GMT
I had really hope this was behind us. So unfortunate to see its head raised once again and unless stopped we are going to see another great thread go astray.
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Tamrin
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Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Sept 10, 2007 17:29:29 GMT
You, clearly, continue to find yourself unable to agree to disagree with me. I ACCEPT THAT YOU DISAGREE WITH MY POSITION.
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Post by lauderdale on Sept 10, 2007 20:36:50 GMT
In many of the Lodges in LDH here in the UK we have Husband and Wife "teams" and in my experience it works well and the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. I have not, as yet, discovered any partner who joined just to keep the other half happy.
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imakegarb
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Post by imakegarb on Sept 10, 2007 20:37:47 GMT
I had really hope this was behind us. So unfortunate to see its head raised once again and unless stopped we are going to see another great thread go astray. Your points are well taken, Bro. Leo I acknowledge and agree with your concerns about the direction of this thread. I take full responsibility for it veering off in this unpleasant area. As it stands, I will not return to this debate again. I was quite wrong to have returned to it on this occasion as I am well aware absolutely nothing can be gained from it. I am very and truly sorry I did re-enter this debate and I apologize to everyone here that I did. I would not at all object to having my posts in this thread deleted.
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Tamrin
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Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Sept 10, 2007 21:41:26 GMT
I have every right to believe a position evil. Granted, even if, as I maintain, it might only be possible for you to suspect its underlying intentions are, as YOU say, 'evil.' However, to express this 'belief' on a public forum is another matter entirely.
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Post by leonardo on Sept 10, 2007 21:54:09 GMT
I had really hope this was behind us. So unfortunate to see its head raised once again and unless stopped we are going to see another great thread go astray. Your points are well taken, Bro. Leo I acknowledge and agree with your concerns about the direction of this thread. I take full responsibility for it veering off in this unpleasant area. As it stands, I will not return to this debate again. I was quite wrong to have returned to it on this occasion as I am well aware absolutely nothing can be gained from it. I am very and truly sorry I did re-enter this debate and I apologize to everyone here that I did. I would not at all object to having my posts in this thread deleted. I appreciate how you have responded to my concerns: speaks volumes about your character. It's just that things were going so well and then a word appears that is misconstrued as offensive and the whole thing is once again revisited. We had all hoped that the unfortunate missunderstanding of a few weeks ago was finally behind us but clearly this has not been the case as there are still uneasy feelings beween you and Phillip. Hopefully it can be put to rest once and for all.
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imakegarb
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Post by imakegarb on Sept 11, 2007 0:50:10 GMT
I have no problems with Bro. Philip. None.
He, on the other hand, has problems with me.
The former is how it stands with me. The latter I can do nothing about.
So, unless Bro. Philip wants to debate with himself (or bait me, quote me out of context or etc. - to which I will not respond), I imagine it's as much at rest as it can be. So I see no reason why the thread need remain derailed.
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Sept 11, 2007 1:14:42 GMT
I have no problems with Bro. Philip. None. He, on the other hand, has problems with me. The former is how it stands with me. The latter I can do nothing about. So, unless Bro. Philip wants to debate with himself (or bait me, quote me out of context or etc. - to which I will not respond), I imagine it's as much at rest as it can be. So I see no reason why the thread need remain derailed. Again with a back-hander. Where have I baited you or quoted you out of context?
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jmd
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fourhares.com
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Post by jmd on Sept 11, 2007 6:35:01 GMT
Though I entirely agree with your perception on this, Bro ichabod, I actually do not see that Bro imakegarb is open to seeing that calling your (and mine, for that!) stance evil is a reviling of character. Of course each may have opinions and views, but when one's views or position is called evil, it merits more than simply a statement of defamation. Nonetheless, I would let it be and allow it to sit with those who bear the proclamation, rather than seeking to clear your good-name of false character reviling.
Others can read and see for themselves that 'evil' is not an appropriate term applied - both because false; as well as because it undermines, rather than supports, a Brother's character (whether in his or her presence or absence)...
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Oct 13, 2007 2:05:02 GMT
I do not intend to enter into any further debate here, on this or any subject. I offer the following only for your consideration:
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Oct 13, 2007 2:17:51 GMT
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Post by tws on Oct 13, 2007 4:01:53 GMT
I do not intend to enter into any further debate here, on this or any subject. I offer the following only for your consideration: After stating that you will not engage in debate, you post this race-baiting image? What, pray tell, was the purpose in posting this image, other than to inflame passions?
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Oct 13, 2007 4:25:55 GMT
After stating that you will not engage in debate, you post this race-baiting image? What, pray tell, was the purpose in posting this image, other than to inflame passions? I do not intend to enter into any further debate here, on this or any subject. I offer the following only for your consideration:
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Post by Ziggy on Oct 13, 2007 16:16:40 GMT
I do not intend to enter into any further debate here, on this or any subject. I offer the following only for your consideration: "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."-Nietzsche Reflection is Projection.
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Post by billmcelligott on Oct 13, 2007 19:31:58 GMT
He who keeps posting the same picture uses lots of screen space. [Bill Mcelligott 2007]
Never start something you can't finish [Adolf Hilter 1946]
Philip, you never argue with me any more, what have I done. ;D
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