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Post by penfold on Sept 14, 2007 10:03:03 GMT
Have created a new topic on this subject from Gaslight's post: When I first considered petitioning a lodge I was at complete liberty to either approach an all-female order, or a mixed order. Following the dictates of my conscience I opted for the latter. [Sorry, off-topic but not worth a separate thread.] Did the content of the various orders have any influence on your decision? I have this vague impression that the all-female orders use mainstream rituals of which UGLE would approve and the mixed orders tend towards esoteric rituals.
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Post by penfold on Sept 14, 2007 10:03:39 GMT
Did the content of the various orders have any influence on your decision? I have this vague impression that the all-female orders use mainstream rituals of which UGLE would approve and the mixed orders tend towards esoteric rituals. I had raised a similar point, in relation to Theosophical content, and was accused of trying to discredit Co-Masonry, (somewhat ironic, as I am a Theosophist: Even so, I prefer to keep my Theosophy more or less distinct from my Masonry).
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Post by penfold on Sept 14, 2007 10:05:21 GMT
Bro Gaslight, you could well be right there. I have heard the two Women Only Grand Lodges in England referred to as "UGLE in Skirts" as from what I know of them they use the same Rituals, wear the same Regalia, and have the same type of Organisation as UGLE. Relations between that Male Grand Lodge and HFAF/OWF are very cordial as they are afforded a Conditional "Recognition" (see UGLE's Website), and UGLE Temples are often hired out to Lodges belonging to these Women Only GLs the only condition being that Male Masons are not present at the same time. When I was in UGLE I attended Orders which met at Wokingham and Caversham in Berkshire and Women Only Lodges met at these Temples. Many UGLE members have wives who belong to HFAF or OWF. (This must make learning their Ritual very easy). Even UGLE's Website acknowledges these two Women Only GLs. Contrast that with the situation between UGLE and LDH. Our existence is not acknowledged by UGLE on their website and certainly they would not permit us to hire any of their Temples. I feel this is due to our having both Women and Men as equal members and that we use more Esoteric Rituals as you Bro Gaslight have alluded. We also have a very different type of Organisation to UGLE or the two Women Only GLs.
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Post by penfold on Sept 14, 2007 10:05:56 GMT
Lauderdale wrote
Bro Lauderdale, is that fact or assumption? Not heard of permission being refused, but there again not heard of anyone asking.
Am going to split this off as a seperate topic.
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Post by corab on Sept 14, 2007 10:53:41 GMT
Lauderdale wrote Bro Lauderdale, is that fact or assumption? Not heard of permission being refused, but there again not heard of anyone asking. Bro:. Penfold -- to my knowledge it is fact. It is based in the rule that applies to feminine lodges using UGLE facilities: when they do, there must be not a man on-site. Kind of rules co-masons out, doesn't it? S&F, Cora
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Post by lauderdale on Sept 14, 2007 10:58:38 GMT
I would say it is a guided assumption.
There is one female Co-Mason whom I know who wrote to an UGLE Masonic Temple in the town where she lived enquiring about Freemasonry for Women. She didn't even get a formal reply. Eventually by her own researches she came to Co-Masonry and is a member thereof.
I would very seriously doubt that if a Co-Masonic Lodge was to write to an UGLE Lodge/ Province asking to hire one of their Temples for a Meeting when it was not in use by an UGLE Lodge, they would get a positive response. I would be lovely if this could happen but I don't see it somehow.
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Post by corab on Sept 14, 2007 11:07:17 GMT
I think that's an over-generalisation. I cannot speak for OWF or HFAF, although going by the reason why the latter split off from LDH and the conversations I've had with members from both Orders, my impression is that indeed they tend to work UGLE ritual. Co-masonry is a very big family (although not all cousins talk to one another ) and our rituals and tendencies range from the most basic "nuts and bolts" to the most "smells and bells" as you can get. Emulation used to be worked in the British Federation, for example, and the Continental Ritual is also far from the elaborate highs of Lauderdale, but therein lies our strength: strength through diversity. On Sunday 30 September I will witness the resuscitation of our Scottish Lodge, working the Scottish Ritual. It's one of the oldest rituals in use in our Order, and one of the more "basic" ones, or so I'm told. (Well, from a Lauderdale perspective, practically EVERY ritual is basic! ;D) S&F, Cora
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Post by cezarek on Sept 14, 2007 11:33:56 GMT
On Sunday 30 September I will witness the resuscitation of our Scottish Lodge, working the Scottish Ritual. It's one of the oldest rituals in use in our Order, and one of the more "basic" ones, or so I'm told. (Well, from a Lauderdale perspective, practically EVERY ritual is basic! ;D) Cora You will certainly like the Scottish Ritual - its strength is very much in its simplicity - very reflective and thought-provoking. I'm sure that one day I'll get to see the Lauderdale...
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Post by penfold on Sept 14, 2007 11:37:14 GMT
I think it would be very difficult for most of the buildings to abide by a rule expecting their to be no men on SITE, I can understand none in the lodge room during a meeting, that makes sense, the other is too extreme for words.
I know one thing, if I ever find myself in the position of managing one of these building I would have no issue with it being used by co-masons, lady masons or even 'irregular' ones, after all the more use a building has the better it is for it.
But thats just my opinion.....
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Post by corab on Sept 14, 2007 11:39:25 GMT
I know one thing, if I ever find myself in the position of managing one of these building I would have no issue with it being used by co-masons, lady masons or even 'irregular' ones, after all the more use a building has the better it is for it. Renegade alert! Zooming in ... location confirmed ... ;D
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imakegarb
Member
One wee, sleeket, cowran, tim'rous beastie
Posts: 3,573
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Post by imakegarb on Sept 14, 2007 14:05:22 GMT
A number of the lodges in my jurisdiction meet in Malecraft Temples. However, it can require some patience and persistence. What often happens is that we write, politely, each year to our Malecraft brothers and they ignore us each year. Then, suddenly, they contact us and we move in. I've been told the change of heart/mind can be real (they suddenly realize we *are* brothers) or financial (our money spends as good as any one else's). But we do wait for it. My own lodge meets in the Temple of another fraternal organization (and wonderful people they are ). We've written to a Malecraft Temple, periodically, and never got an answer. We have noticed, however, that they rent to Wiccans, various new age groups and to weddings and various social engagements. So their objection to us is a puzzlement. However, this experience has taught me that forcing Malecraft Lodges to integrate will not at all assist in making Co-Masonry and Femalecraft Masonry more readily available as it would only plant seeds of resentment; which would, itself, I think, cause a backlash and a good many setbacks that would lead to these options being even less readily available. I am coming to conclude that force offers only a means to stall recognition. And recognition (official or otherwise), I also am coming to conclude, is the better way toward achieving the goal of making these options more readily available. And I know this because, as explained above, I have witnessed it. Truly, the emperor has no clothes As to rituals . . . well, I've had a chance to examine ritual and I can tell you that what my lodge works is almost entirely Emulation type with some other elements (which I've found in Scottish and Irish work) included. Bro. Gaslight, your original question to Bro. Cora, about whether the content of the various orders influenced her decision, puzzles me. I never, ever saw our ritual until I was initiated and was a good candidate and did not study any Masonic ritual until after I was initiated. So far as I know, this is standard practice in all Co-Masonic orders and I thought it was so in all jurisdictions. Your question would suggest you think it normal for a Candidate to have access to the ritual and to use this access to decide which jurisdiction to join. This is what puzzles me as I've never heard of it. Where you come from, is it considered standard for Candidates to study ritual in advance of petitioning/initiation?
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Post by penfold on Sept 14, 2007 15:17:33 GMT
Renegade alert! Zooming in ... location confirmed ... ;D Reminds me of this cartoon:
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Post by leonardo on Sept 14, 2007 15:19:59 GMT
Yes, I can confirm that is Penfold on the left
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Post by corab on Sept 14, 2007 17:04:36 GMT
Bro. Gaslight, your original question to Bro. Cora, about whether the content of the various orders influenced her decision, puzzles me. I never, ever saw our ritual until I was initiated and was a good candidate and did not study any Masonic ritual until after I was initiated. Good point, Bro:. Karen -- I completely missed that. My choice between femine and co-masonry was driven by two things:- - I had no intention of joining anything that would per default exclude my husband; and
- I had prior experience of ceremonial workings in a mixed environment and believe the balance between masculine and feminine energies to be essential to the quality of my experience.
Having said that, my choice of lodge *was* indirectly guided by its working, as I was directed to the lodge based on the information I gave about myself, and the information I was given about the various lodges. I was contacted by two lodges, and was due to visit both, but hit it off straightaway with Amen-Ra and had no desire to visit anything else after that. To this day, I believe it was the right choice. There is one sister lodge I feel particular affinity with, and I would've thrived in their midst, but I maintain that I made the right choice in going for my mother lodge. ;D Coming back to the point of informing a candidate of the lodge working -- I raised that very point with my mentor some time ago, Bro:. Karen, and she acknowledged that of course a candidate won't have actual experience of the ritual until after having been initiated, however, there is nothing stopping lodges from informing their candidates about the nature of the ritual. For Lauderdale -- and from what I understand the ritual of your own lodge -- that would be "It is a very elaborate ritual"; for other workings it might be "It's one of our oldest rituals" or "It is unique, because it moves on the Circle rather than the Square". I'm sure we all can come up with a description of the rituals we work -- and that is the sort of information a candidate needs to have before s/he signs his/her application form, because no matter how right the Brn:. might be for him/her, the ritual might be completely wrong. h.g.w., Cora
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Post by corab on Sept 14, 2007 17:05:57 GMT
Oh, so *that's* what you look like, Penfold! ;-)
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Post by gaslight on Sept 14, 2007 22:19:10 GMT
I never, ever saw our ritual until I was initiated and was a good candidate and did not study any Masonic ritual until after I was initiated. So far as I know, this is standard practice in all Co-Masonic orders and I thought it was so in all jurisdictions. Your question would suggest you think it normal for a Candidate to have access to the ritual and to use this access to decide which jurisdiction to join. This is what puzzles me as I've never heard of it. Where you come from, is it considered standard for Candidates to study ritual in advance of petitioning/initiation? No, it's not, but the more diligent candidates do have a good idea of the differences between lodges and jurisdictions. On one of my lodge websites, the FAQ emphasizes that candidates have a choice, and lists variables such as location, meeting times, lodge ambience, jurisdiction, and ritual. I belong to two lodges and both present newly raised MMs with copies of their respective rituals. Very few EAs or FCs express interest in seeing the ritual before then, and those that do are advised to be patient. However, it's no big deal if a candidate, EA or FC gets to see a copy. The perception is that reading the ritual beforehand takes some of the magic from the degree, but then so do many other factors: shoddy ritual work, cellphones ringing, snoring brethren, etc. A few years ago I was conducting a candidate in the Mark Degree and was wrong-footed when he responded perfectly to all questions before I could prompt him. He'd found the ritual in the back of the 'Standard' Scottish and decided to get ready for the degree. In my case, before I petitioned a lodge I was well aware of major differences between US and UK workings, and that swayed my choice of lodge significantly. My question to Bro. Cora didn't presuppose a reading of ritual books as such. What I had in mind was an awareness of major differences in tradition and approach.
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Post by gaslight on Sept 14, 2007 22:27:08 GMT
On Sunday 30 September I will witness the resuscitation of our Scottish Lodge, working the Scottish Ritual. It's one of the oldest rituals in use in our Order, and one of the more "basic" ones, or so I'm told. (Well, from a Lauderdale perspective, practically EVERY ritual is basic! ;D) There are so many 'Scottish' rituals that I'm assuming you refer to The "Standard" Ritual of Scottish Freemasonry. Am I right? My undated copy of the same is published by David Fairbairn in Edinburgh, but before that it was published by C.C. & A.T. Gardner, and before that by James. T. Cowan. It probably has an even longer history. It's a small green book, about 8 cm x 12 cm.
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Post by corab on Sept 14, 2007 22:37:23 GMT
The perception is that reading the ritual beforehand takes some of the magic from the degree I take it then that you don't have separate copies of the 1st and 2nd degrees? In the British Federation candidates are given a copy or the 1st degree ritual upon their Initiation, and of the 2nd degree upon their passing -- those are on loan. Upon raising, the MM receives a hardback copy of the full ritual. That way, the candidate can learn what is relevant to his/her degree, without spoiling the magic of the next. You ARE kidding, right?
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Post by corab on Sept 14, 2007 22:41:26 GMT
There are so many 'Scottish' rituals that I'm assuming you refer to The "Standard" Ritual of Scottish Freemasonry. Am I right? My undated copy of the same is published by David Fairbairn in Edinburgh, but before that it was published by C.C. & A.T. Gardner, and before that by James. T. Cowan. It probably has an even longer history. Nope -- we have our own "Scottish Ritual". It's the Scottish Lodge No 884 that is being resuscitated on 30 September - it will be the first time for me to see the Scottish Ritual worked.
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Post by gaslight on Sept 14, 2007 23:03:15 GMT
The perception is that reading the ritual beforehand takes some of the magic from the degree I take it then that you don't have separate copies of the 1st and 2nd degrees? In the British Federation candidates are given a copy or the 1st degree ritual upon their Initiation, and of the 2nd degree upon their passing -- those are on loan. Upon raising, the MM receives a hardback copy of the full ritual. That way, the candidate can learn what is relevant to his/her degree, without spoiling the magic of the next. Correct. All three degrees, plus a selection of optional lectures, come in the form of a single book. I collect rituals and have some examples of the separate kind, so it's not just a British Federation thing. Oh that I were, dear lady. As recently as Tuesday, our WJW's phone went off in the middle of the opening. He wasn't our regular WJW, just a PM sitting in for an absent Brother. It had been years since he'd sat in that chair and got competely lost. He grabbed his ritual, kept everyone waiting while he found the page, then began to read from the wrong place. And that's when his phone went off. Talk about shambles. Snoring? Yes! In my other lodge we have a venerable Brother who's in his mid-90s. He often falls asleep during meetings and has been known to snore loudly until someone leans over and nudges him.
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