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Post by corab on Sept 14, 2007 23:09:37 GMT
As recently as Tuesday, our WJW's phone went off in the middle of the opening. Oh my, that is just unthinkable ... most of us turn our phones off as soon as we enter HQ; we certainly don't take it with us inside the Temple!
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Post by lauderdale on Sept 14, 2007 23:09:47 GMT
Bro Gaslight. I studied Freemasonry greatly from 1968 when I first became interested in The Craft in my native Scotland until I was Initiated into an UGLE Lodge in 1988 including reading "Darkness Visible" by Walton Hannah (I ignored his anti-Masonic opinions but found the information on Freemasonry and its Rituals that he gave to be very accurate). No, in my case it did NOT "spoil it for me" nor did I do as Gaslight's Candidate and answer the Questions etc before being prompted by the Deacon. All my reading and research however did not inform me of the existence of Co-Masonry, something I was to discover much later on from the Internet.
I can attest to Bro Cora's remarks about mobile phones etc. Before entering the Temple in procession we will stand in line for a few moments outside in silence to focus our thoughts There is no chatting, no eating mints or other sweets. I have to contrast that with UGLE Lodges were some Brethren seem to hold their own Meeting totally disinterested in what the Master or others are doing. When in the Chair at one Meeting I had to gavel and admonish some Brethren for chatting amongst themselves whilst I was imparting the Signs, Token and Word of the Second Degree to the Candidate.
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Sept 15, 2007 1:18:46 GMT
There is no chatting, no eating mints or other sweets. In Advancing, there is a point at which the Brethren present line-up to receive their dues. In practice, apart from the candidate, the Brethren usually only pretend to have been paid. I fondly recall one Brother who, as S.W. in this degree, would give each a sweet when they applied to be paid. I thought it was appropriate as a quaint and harmless innovation in this instance.
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Post by lauderdale on Sept 15, 2007 10:06:38 GMT
Yes I have seen this too in Mark and in that context it is quite reasonable. My objection was to the general chit-chat and lack of attention to the Chair and to the Ritual being worked that occurred in too many UGLE Lodges. Generally, in LDH, we provide a glass of water for each Officer should they wish it and I can understand if someone felt dry in the mouth they might wish to suck a peppermint but if sweets are being passed around willy nilly then it detracts from the solemnity of the Ceremony. As to the Esoteric aspects of eating during a Ritual that is a separate matter.
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Sept 16, 2007 3:36:03 GMT
Bro. gaslight and Brethren all,
Is anyone aware any "mixed" Order which more or less practices "mainstream" ritual?
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Post by gaslight on Sept 16, 2007 3:59:51 GMT
Is anyone aware any "mixed" Order which more or less practices "mainstream" ritual? Doesn't one of the LDH lodges work Emulation?
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Sept 16, 2007 4:10:48 GMT
Doesn't one of the LDH lodges work Emulation? If so, is this without such things as the office of Thurifer and without the wearing of "Scottish" Rite regalia?
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jmd
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Post by jmd on Sept 16, 2007 5:44:25 GMT
Correct, Bro. ichabod - also, in contradistinction (at least locally) to the Lodges who use the Besant-Leadbeater ritual, Emulation members wear black dresses (they are all women members locally), as opposed to white.
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Sept 16, 2007 6:45:12 GMT
Correct, Bro. ichabod - also, in contradistinction (at least locally) to the Lodges who use the Besant-Leadbeater ritual, Emulation members wear black dresses (they are all women members locally), as opposed to white. Thank you Brethren,Hmmm... hypothetically, if an entire Co-Masonic Obedience were to practice Emulation ritual, perhaps it might be an appropriate body to test the possibility of mainstream recognition or, at least a qualified acknowledgment of regularity.
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jmd
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Post by jmd on Sept 16, 2007 7:03:02 GMT
Unfortunately no, as within the local Federation at any rate, it is my understanding that the first three degrees are still under a Supreme Council, and thus not independently administered - I stand to be corrected, of course, as I am not a LDH member.
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Post by lauderdale on Sept 16, 2007 10:34:42 GMT
For an entire Co-Masonic Obedience to work the Emulation Ritual? NO WAY! Far too high a price to pay for a friendly nod from Gt Queen Street in our direction. In any event I prefer that we respect each other but keep to our own side of the road. I have no wish to be dragged back into UGLE by the back door! We leave it to our Lodges to choose their Ritual, and do not impose one on them. Personally I greatly dislike Emulation Ritual , far too austere and Puritanical for me and I was glad to get away from it when I left UGLE. My own UGLE Lodges when I was member thereof used Taylor's or Sussex Ritual and Taylor's was by far the better but falls far short of Lauderdale Ritual as used in my Lodge and some others in LDH. Bro JMD you are right, our Degrees are Administered by our Supreme Council as from 1 to 33 they are part of an Initiatic Continuity and are part of A&ASR, hence the right to wear Rose Croix Collarettes in our Craft Lodge which as an 18th Degree I do. I can see no benefit whatsoever for us to change our system of governance to mimic that of UGLE or other Malecraft GLs.
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Sept 16, 2007 11:17:31 GMT
This was no more than a hypothetical. I was only musing and trying to determine both the extent and limitations of choices. As before, I was mooting a bureaucratic way around a bureaucratic hurdle, of which I'm not entirely convinced of it having been imposed in good faith.
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Post by lauderdale on Sept 16, 2007 11:18:40 GMT
Very limited if I may say so and frankly unhelpful.
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Sept 16, 2007 11:22:39 GMT
Very limited if I may say so and frankly unhelpful. Well it was helpful to me in my understanding of the situation and I suggest such discussion is useful. Indeed, while the hypothetical option may not be to your taste, perhaps others might welcome having such a choice. Quite frankly, I am perplexed by your insistance on limiting Masonic options in this way. For an entire Co-Masonic Obedience to work the Emulation Ritual? NO WAY!
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Post by lauderdale on Sept 16, 2007 15:50:06 GMT
Bro Carter, you are flogging a dead horse I feel.
Now in an Ideal World there would be no bar on anyone whatever their Gender, Sexual Orientation, Race, Religion etc becoming Freemasons, assuming they were of suitable character.
We are in the REAL World and such prohibitions alas exist.
Now as to Freedom of Choice we have the following. Co-Masonry of various types, my own , LDH is Democratic and permits a great deal of autonomy to Lodges especially in matters of Ritual. To use your example although there are already LDH Lodges which work the Emulation Ritual should another Lodge wish to change to it or indeed from it to another it could do so as long as the matter was properly discussed by the Lodge Council then discussed and voted upon by the Brethren of the Lodge. If one or a minority of Brethren didn't like such a change they could of course join another Lodge working a different Ritual. Freedom of Choice?
There are also here the UK the well known Malecraft GLs such as UGLE, GL of I, GL of S, as well as some Lodges under the Grand Orient of France and the Grand Lodge of France. Freedom of Choice?
Last and by no means least there are the two Women Only Grand Lodges HFAF and OWF for women who do not wish mixed Masonry. Freedom of Choice? I would say so.
I know you mean well and I feel you ought to put your money where your mouth is and take your GL to Court in Australia under your Anti Discrimination Laws if that is what you feel is your mission. Good Luck to you sir!
I'm afraid you come across to me like Don Quixote, or perhaps on a more mundane level like a blowfly buzzing around a room in the hot weather and continually banging against a plate glass window when an open door and the outdoors are but a few feet away. In the end it is found dead on the window cill. You have oversold your case and lost any support I may in the past have given.
I feel that most who post to this Forum are if not happy at least quite content with the status quo. I for one would not be prepared to sacrifice any of LDH's Customs, Practices, Governance or Rituals to appease UGLE or Malecraft in general and would not expect them to to so in return. I subscribe to the famous saying of the poet Robert Frost "Good fences make good neighbours"
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Post by corab on Sept 16, 2007 17:06:51 GMT
Bro:. Philip, I am most bemused by your suggestion. What makes you think we want "mainstream recognition"? Hmmm... hypothetically, if an entire Co-Masonic Obedience were to practice Emulation ritual, perhaps it might be an appropriate body to test the possibility of mainstream recognition or, at least a qualified acknowledgment of regularity.
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Sept 16, 2007 20:30:07 GMT
Bro:. Philip,
I am most bemused by your suggestion. What makes you think we want "mainstream recognition"? Bro. Cora,The question is relevant to the wider issue and is legitimate to ask. For what it’s worth others, including Co-Masons, have occasionally expressed a wish for some sort of recognition or have challenged the current concept of recognition. As I have stated before, and will do so again, it is the principle of recognition (and the related principles of (ir)regularity and intervisitation) that I challenge. I have said this many times: mutual recognition does not mean a fundamental change to each other's Obedience. If UGLE were to recognise us I for one would not expect to be able to join you in Lodge, and I would not dream of disturbing the harmony in any Lodge in such a manner. As a woman I accept and respect that even if such a recognition were to be made, inter-visitation from LDH to UGLE would be restricted to our male Brethren only, and that is fine.
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Sept 16, 2007 20:44:52 GMT
I know you mean well and I feel you ought to put your money where your mouth is and take your GL to Court in Australia under your Anti Discrimination Laws if that is what you feel is your mission. Good Luck to you sir! Bro. Foley,My questions and musings were simply that and were legitimate in the context of the wider debate. You did not have to participate. You certainly did not have to be abusive. This will be my fourth submission to the Australian Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission and is dependent on the outcome of the ensuing federal election (and the keeping of an election promise) rather than on your advice.
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Post by lauderdale on Sept 16, 2007 21:03:57 GMT
In don't need the likes of you, Sir, to tell me what discussions or threads I can or cannot post to, that is the preserve of an Admin or Moderator and I understand that you are neither?
As the self appointed Champion of Women who are or would be Masons you have put yourself out on a limb and as such could suffer a great fall. Still, if you see Justice in your quest then go to it and press suit in a Court of Law and as I have said before, Good Luck to you! David has been known to topple Goliath.
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Post by leonardo on Sept 16, 2007 21:20:50 GMT
As recently as Tuesday, our WJW's phone went off in the middle of the opening. Oh my, that is just unthinkable ... most of us turn our phones off as soon as we enter HQ; we certainly don't take it with us inside the Temple! One of the reasons I stopped going to the cinema as regularly as I use to was the amount of times I heard mobile phones going off during the main feature. I imagine I'd be rather disappointed if this were to happen in the Temple!
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