jmd
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Post by jmd on Sept 20, 2007 12:52:28 GMT
Let's move on, brethren!
It is clear that Bro. ichabod's manner seems to irritate some, and that the ad hominem responses as a consequence of this tend to address his good self rather than the points raised, and that this in turn leads to defensive responses viewed as attacks, and the cycle continues.
Bro. ichabod presents very important considerations that perhaps I tend to see as important, admittedly perhaps because on the whole am in agreement. Nonetheless, reacting to the tone of the messenger rather than listening and responding to the message needs to be overcome, or this Forum will lose worthy contributions.
The 'fall of the gavel' may or may not be the best manner to proceed, as after all each, no matter whether having the gavel or not, has constraints as to how something may be seen.
The situation with women Freemasons in constitutions that currently exclude such may be somewhat similar to the Berlin Wall: nobody thought it would nor could happen (except at some time in the remote future, not within our lifetime!)... yet, once the first couple of bricks were removed, the lot collapsed in no time at all, to the astonishment of the whole world.
Those who 'pushed' the issue did not stand back and wait for the future to remove a barrier deserving to be removed.
Its removal did not force people to move from East to West Berlin (or vice versa) - rather, it did not prohibit such from happening. A huge difference!
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Post by gaslight on Sept 20, 2007 13:18:12 GMT
I ask this question with trepidation, as it may have been answered elsewhere.
Are there any cases of women taking legal action after having been turned away from a male lodge?
I have a vague recollection of somebody, somewhere threatening to do just that, but whether it came to anything I don't know.
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jmd
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Post by jmd on Sept 20, 2007 13:35:55 GMT
There was a case that from memory was taken to the equal opportunity board sometime in the 80s or 90s here in Victoria. At the time, the EO Legislation was still in infancy, and if I recall this was before a successful change for the Scouts.
There have been many changes to both the legislation and to cases that may be deemed relevant since (such as some previously exclusive men-only clubs), so there is no guarantee that it would be unsuccessful this time. Precedence or the result of past court cases with similar arguments would be taken into consideration here, and frankly suspect the Craft would have a tough time arguing for same-sex-only membership based on historical or other grounds.
To give an equivalent example, workplace relations legislation allowed some educational institutions to be excluded from a common rule award in the past - something that was upheld by courts. The same was lost for all Victorian educational institutions two years ago (when even five years ago, it was still possible for a small handful to hold back the tide of change) [In this latter case, by the way, I was arguing on behalf of status quo.]
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imakegarb
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Post by imakegarb on Sept 20, 2007 13:54:04 GMT
I really was not going to comment on this further until a few Moderators had had their say on whether I was being justly accused or not. However, this blatant attempt to divert attention from what was, in fact, a personal attack on me beggars belief. Bro. Mike, I am a moderator here. I understand your request for other moderators to weigh in. I'm not sure all of us will but I'm sure there will be others. My words are directed to you, no one else. And I will not respond further. This is my reply to your request for opinions from moderators. Nothing more. I agree with Bro. Leo, you have not personally attacked anyone. For anyone who isn't especially clear on what a personal attack is. It's quite simple: it's when a person, and not an idea, is being attacked. So long as comment are aimed at an idea, it's fine. Even commenting on why one suspects a personal has come to the opinion they have, it's fine. However, when they're aimed at a person (such as name calling, bullying, claiming they speak dishonorably, etc.), it isn't fine. And that's all.
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Tamrin
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Nosce te ipsum
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Post by Tamrin on Sept 20, 2007 20:06:47 GMT
FWIW, I first encountered the term "gaslighting" on this forum. At the time it received no strong response. That being said, an Administrator and a Moderator have now expressed their opinions [edit: while the latter's was said to be only for one other member, it was in public rather than by PM] and, as I strongly disagree [edit: and as it concerns the nature of debate on the forum], I bid you all farewell. This topic is not abour the Webster's Definition of the word sect. Please, stop Gaslighting. 'Gaslighting,' for me, was an unfamiliar term. For those like me, here is an explanation[/url].[/quote]
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Post by leonardo on Sept 20, 2007 21:06:57 GMT
Bro Phillip there really is no need to take this action over what is essentially a difference of opinion and I would urge you to seriously reconsider any decision to leave. You have, after all, much still left to offer not just to those of us new to the Craft, but many veterans as well.
If you do still decide to leave I sincerely wish you well but hope someday you will once again return to us.
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Post by thedixiemason on Sept 20, 2007 21:17:42 GMT
Ew! I had never heard of that term. I just thought he worked for the gas company, you know like Florida Gaslight. Oh well, I guess I'm not as educated in worldly ways as I thought.
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Post by mike on Sept 20, 2007 22:10:13 GMT
FWIW, I first encountered the term "gaslighting" on this forum. At the time it received no strong response. That being said, an Administrator and a Moderator have now expressed their opinion and, as I strongly disagree, I bid you all farewell. Philip Get a grip will you. You don't have to throw a tantrum and storm off. All you actually need to do is apologise and then stop claiming/assuming that anyone who doesn't agree with your ideas is somehow attacking you. Then we can all carry on sharing our thoughts and ideas about the wonderfully diverse world of Freemasonry. What say you? M
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Post by maat on Sept 20, 2007 23:07:46 GMT
On another thread entirely - consideration was being given to the validity of some lodges using the VSL, which has blank pages (the blanks being symbolic of the Sacred Law held within each sacred breast.) Blank pages are looking real good right now, no words to wound us. I don't know about all the other rituals around the world, but at times of attack I keep reminding myself of some words that resounded with me during my initiation ceremony. "Do you promise to persevere throughout the ordeal of your initiation?" Our initiation ceremony, IMO, is this whole life time! This is self evident as there is nothing to persevere with in the initiation ceremony itself. And what kind of Soldiers of the GA are we, if the first insult that is hurled at us mortally wounds us? One acknowledged Master tells us to turn the other cheek, 70 x 7 if we have to. Hard to do, granted, but we must persevere. One of my favourite Monty Python moments was the scene at the castle. They had run out of ammo and decided to hurl insults, one including someone's favourite aunt Just realizing it is only funny in the movies Good advice above.... lets move on. Maat
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imakegarb
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Post by imakegarb on Sept 20, 2007 23:54:35 GMT
Bro. Ma'at . . . wow. Just . . . wow. You do make a body think. A lot Thank you
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Post by Ziggy on Sept 21, 2007 1:38:28 GMT
After reading through this thread, all I have to say is that those who have used the threat of legal and political action, have just shown that we of the Regular Masonic Grand Lodges are you're better in every way. For it is us Regular Lodges that live comfortably and easily without your approval, as you suffer for ours.
Furthermore, recognition is not about coming in compliance with your views, but the irregular (meaning NOT of Regulus, or the laws laid down by Regulus) must comply with our standards in order to become recognized, not the other way around. People can make idle threats all they want, it's not going to change things, we in no way should be ashamed of being an all male fraternity, nor do we have to recognize your Irregular bodies as regular. The nature of this whole argument of forced recognition is fascist and dictictorial in its very nature, and undermines the idea of Liberty and Free Association.
But if all feel the need to try and pursue such legal action, it only means that Regular Grand Lodge's and my countries will counter with trademark and copyright infringements, as well as accusations of fraud through misrepresentation, and the fact that he there is no legality to the argument, even if the ERA is ratified. People should read legislation before they go citing it, and threatening to use it.
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Post by wayseer on Sept 21, 2007 2:29:08 GMT
Blank pages are looking real good right now, no words to wound us.
Maybe we could have a blank forum - and no one will get hurt.
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jmd
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Post by jmd on Sept 21, 2007 2:46:53 GMT
Co-Freemasonry has long existed in the USA (which is what I presume you mean by 'my country'). They use the term Freemasonry and use the square and compasses legally there, of course... but am I to read that you are proposing a legal challenge to their claim and usage? Now that would be a funny - as well as quite sad - state of affairs to witness! In terms of requiring to 'comply with your standards in order to be recognised', it could be argued that GLs that meet higher standards are perhaps unlikely to be 'recognised' by a GL who does not meet as high a standard, and yet wishes not to be seen as having shortcomings - or is that why I presume your GL recognises neither the Grand Orient of France nor CoFreemasonry (LDH and others)? The saddest loss here is Bro ichabod deciding to leave.
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Post by Ziggy on Sept 21, 2007 3:21:08 GMT
Co-Freemasonry has long existed in the USA (which is what I presume you mean by 'my country'). They use the term Freemasonry and use the square and compasses legally there, of course... but am I to read that you are proposing a legal challenge to their claim and usage? Now that would be a funny - as well as quite sad - state of affairs to witness! In terms of requiring to 'comply with your standards in order to be recognised', it could be argued that GLs that meet higher standards are perhaps unlikely to be 'recognised' by a GL who does not meet as high a standard, and yet wishes not to be seen as having shortcomings - or is that why I presume your GL recognises neither the Grand Orient of France nor CoFreemasonry (LDH and others)? The saddest loss here is Bro ichabod deciding to leave. Those irregular Masonic bodies, who choose to pick a fight, with the regular Masonic Grand Lodges of my country, can expect the Regular Grand Lodges to finish it. There has been court precedent set, within the federal court system, as well as a long history of case law, that gives us they claim to the name and titles, of Freemasonry, Scottish Rite, York rite, as well as Shrine. As well is the symbol that accompany these orders. You're more than welcome to look it up online, the Square and Compasses is trademarked by the Grand Lodge of New Jersey, been used in legal cases to shut down clandestine money lodges. If there's people will want to start a fight, their more than welcome to bring it on.
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Post by maat on Sept 21, 2007 3:33:01 GMT
the Square and Compasses is trademarked by the Grand Lodge of New Jersey, been used in legal cases to shut down clandestine money lodges. Absolutely amazing!!! ...and what sort of trade do you indulge in? Maat
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imakegarb
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Post by imakegarb on Sept 21, 2007 3:34:24 GMT
Those irregular Masonic bodies, who choose to pick a fight, with the regular Masonic Grand Lodges of my country, can expect the Regular Grand Lodges to finish it. First of all, I am as "Regular" in my jurisdiction and any other Freemason is within their's. So far as I know, no jurisdiction on earth has ceded the authority to determine the regularity of her member Masons to any other jurisdiction. So it's not up to any other jurisdiction to determine I'm regular. Only my own. And I quality. That said . . . I'm not aware of any Co-Masonic Masonic body that is seeking such legal action. In fact, I know of only one person, Bro. Philip, considering such and he, presently, is without a jurisdiction (by his own choice). You say you've read thru this thread so I'm more than slightly startled you didn't notice this. I'm sure. However, before you cloth yourself as being "better", please make sure you don't start picking fights of your own with innocent bystanders, who happen to be your brothers, who've never done a thing to you. Before you show the world, by your words and actions, just how much "better" you are, please be sure of your target, K?
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imakegarb
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Post by imakegarb on Sept 21, 2007 3:39:39 GMT
the Square and Compasses is trademarked by the Grand Lodge of New Jersey, been used in legal cases to shut down clandestine money lodges. Absolutely amazing!!! ...and what sort of trade do you indulge in? Maat I'm told my jurisdiction was sued, decades ago, to keep us from referring to ourselves as Freemasons. Uh, we won. I think it notable that Co-Masonry, in the US, has never made any - not any - demands on Malecraft Masonry. Malecraft Masonry, by contrast, has made many of us. And has encouraged much bitterness. While not all of them are like this (most of my encounters have been very, very positive) there are others who show this . . . quality. I choose to know them by their fruits. Most of the time, it's been wonderful. But I've also learned that there are times I must kick the dust off my feet. That may not sound especially Masonic. However, a very wise Brother told me that a constant willingness to forgive is very Masonic - and a good way to get your teeth kicked in. In the final analysis, I am a Co-Mason. I don't go where I'm not wanted.
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Post by maat on Sept 21, 2007 3:47:34 GMT
Time for a laugh, even if it is a cheap one...
Am I the only mason on the forum who keeps thinking prunes with all this talk on regularity?
;DMaat ;D
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Post by Ziggy on Sept 21, 2007 4:01:18 GMT
Time for a laugh, even if it is a cheap one... Am I the only mason on the forum who keeps thinking prunes with all this talk on regularity? ;DMaat ;D Say what you want, I'm not the one whining and crying over regularity. ;D
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Post by maat on Sept 21, 2007 4:02:55 GMT
Those irregular Masonic bodies, who choose to pick a fight, with the regular Masonic Grand Lodges of my country, can expect the Regular Grand Lodges to finish it. There has been court precedent set, within the federal court system, as well as a long history of case law, that gives us they claim to the name and titles, of Freemasonry, Scottish Rite, York rite, as well as Shrine. As well is the symbol that accompany these orders. You're more than welcome to look it up online, the Square and Compasses is trademarked by the Grand Lodge of New Jersey, been used in legal cases to shut down clandestine money lodges. If there's people will want to start a fight, their more than welcome to bring it on. Another post of your Avicenna from another thread... Avicenna you seem to be confused about all this court case business... you are contradicting yourself. But it is certainly clear that you intend to take heaven by storm .... Just a reminder here that many of our members are not Masons and can only form their opinions of us by what they see here. Maat
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