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Post by mike on Sept 23, 2007 17:37:36 GMT
What moral justification is there in telling a member of a lodge that he cannot visit a mixed gender lodge? He visits representing only himself as a Mason. The problem is not GL rules governing the GL. The problem is the governing outside of their jurisdiction, meaning governing what a man does in his free time. I can get behind that one. M
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Post by leonardo on Sept 23, 2007 18:13:33 GMT
I have been watching this thread and I can see and appreciate the passion some Brethren have on the subject. If I may offer this. The only thing wrong with the status quo is that a moratorium on brains has been called. Freemasons do not need to be controlled, nor should they be controlled. My current GL is a male ony organization. That is fine by me. So my lodge does not initiate, pass or raise women (some could say that fail to initiate a lot of our members also). What moral justification is there in telling a member of a lodge that he cannot visit a mixed gender lodge? He visits representing only himself as a Mason. The problem is not GL rules governing the GL. The problem is the governing outside of their jurisdiction, meaning governing what a man does in his free time. Brandt Very well stated.
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Post by whistler on Sept 23, 2007 18:57:33 GMT
Wayseer and you will have to explain how changing the VSL for a book of blank pages could be considered any sort of Law, or Lore, when nothing therein is written.
Easy When the Laws of existence comes from the heart there are no words to put in a book - making those Laws words become words of Man and become Lore. If your VSL should be the Christian Bible and the ritual requires me to hold it whilst making promises - it is not my legend but out of kindness to you I would hold it , not a problem - it is not to the book I make my commitment it is to myself- the words Moral worth come to mind. As to the Status quo - The Moa was a Bird who refused to fly - funny they have all vanished. It is also the arrogance of Old Age to suggest that younger men and women are not part of th evolutionary process. .
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Post by whistler on Sept 23, 2007 19:21:02 GMT
What moral justification is there in telling a member of a lodge that he cannot visit a mixed gender lodge? He visits representing only himself as a Mason. The problem is not GL rules governing the GL. The problem is the governing outside of their jurisdiction, meaning governing what a man does in his free time. I can get behind that one. M Mike Welcome
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Post by wayseer on Sept 23, 2007 23:49:42 GMT
When the Laws of existence comes from the heart there are no words to put in a book
Which is not so 'easy' as you suggest.
There are no words 'written' on anyone's hearts - those 'words' to which you refer a culmination of a social activity called learning - largely unconscious at times. And, unless you wish to reinvent the wheel, as they say, most of that 'learning' originates from books - however much we might refuse to acknowledge those 'words'.
That does not mean, nor have I suggested, that one reneges on their own individual responsibility of developing a method of how those 'words' are put into practice - which is the design of the Masonic ritual.
Bro Brandt - your post is well received and Brethren might note that in that regard what I wrote earlier -
Status quo could mean 'balance' or it could mean 'keep things as they are'. Remembering that 'all created things are subject to change', I'm just wondering about this course of this thread.
In other words, it is impossible to 'maintain the status quo' - all created things are subject to change. Our course of conduct is observe a due medium between avarice and profusion, to hold the scales of justice with equal poise. To suggest one can do that without educating the mind, and to the highest perfection to which human nature may attain, is a fallacy.
Of course - silly me - I should have realise - we could have a ritual book full of blank pages then everyone will fear no ill.
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Post by whistler on Sept 24, 2007 0:46:56 GMT
wayseer There are no words 'written' on anyone's hearts - those 'words' to which you refer a culmination of a social activity called learning - largely unconscious at times. And, unless you wish to reinvent the wheel, as they say, most of that 'learning' originates from books - however much we might refuse to acknowledge those 'words'
This may be for you and that is fine.
But it is Certainly not for me I am happy I know exactly where- my inner - Higher Self comes from - It is certainly is not from Social activity or from Books. But I guess that may be the difference between your path and mine can't see any problem here .
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jmd
Member
fourhares.com
Posts: 1,081
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Post by jmd on Sept 24, 2007 1:10:34 GMT
Is it not through education that someone can develop a deep understanding of a book of blank pages?
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Post by maat on Sept 24, 2007 1:35:48 GMT
Re: blank pages - I have heard it said that even more than destruction or death - man fears true freedom.
Maat
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Post by maat on Sept 24, 2007 2:03:59 GMT
What is wrong with the Status Quo?
As Brandt said - encroaching upon a person's private life. Which, IMO, is the abuse of power prompted by fear. Is this the reason for the rule:
5. That the Grand Lodge shall have sovereign jurisdiction over the Lodges under its control; i.e. that it shall be a responsible, independent, self-governing organization, with sole and undisputed authority over the Craft or Symbolic Degrees (Entered Apprentice, Fellow Craft, and Master Mason) within its Jurisdiction; and shall not in any way be subject to, or divide such authority with, a Supreme Council or other Power claiming any control or supervision over those degrees.
By extending the Jurisdiction, one extends the power and the hold. Granting RECOGNITION, or refusing to grant recognition AND MOST IMPORTANTLY - THREATENING TO WITHDRAW RECOGNITION does the same thing. Threats turn tools into weapons. Despotic rulers know this well.
Maat
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imakegarb
Member
One wee, sleeket, cowran, tim'rous beastie
Posts: 3,573
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Post by imakegarb on Sept 24, 2007 3:56:39 GMT
Despotic rulers know this well. Indeed.
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Post by wayseer on Sept 24, 2007 7:38:24 GMT
This is beginning to sound like an anti-freemaon site.
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Post by wayseer on Sept 24, 2007 7:40:18 GMT
...although subordination amongst men is necessary to preserve subordination, yet not let us forget that we are Brothers, and those who are in a position of subordination deserve our full regard as those who have obtained a position of power and authority ...
Some of you may note, I am more than a little critical of certain aspects concerning the activities of my GL. However some organisation needs to be in control. To suggest otherwise begs anarchy.
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Post by leonardo on Sept 24, 2007 7:54:18 GMT
This is beginning to sound like an anti-freemaon site. Please explain.
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Post by corab on Sept 24, 2007 11:27:11 GMT
This is beginning to sound like an anti-freemaon site. On the contrary -- it's starting to sound like a pro- FREEmasonry site! And to take a light-hearted slant at it, Google's quote of today is:- If you're not scared or angry at the thought of a human brain being controlled remotely, then it could be this prototype of mine is finally starting to work. - John Alejandro King ;D ;D ;D
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imakegarb
Member
One wee, sleeket, cowran, tim'rous beastie
Posts: 3,573
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Post by imakegarb on Sept 24, 2007 15:09:38 GMT
Bro. Wayseer, I do not think anyone is asking for anarchy. I do think there are those among us who don't want to be pressured into blind obedience that is not, in fact, called for. And who, in fact, feel they support and maintain their obedience just fine when they are allowed to question why they must do what they've been told to do: and "just because" doesn't fly. We are brothers, yes. We, also, are adults.
And when it comes to it, dissent is *not* disloyalty. Truly, it is not.
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Post by brandt on Sept 24, 2007 19:24:54 GMT
There is control and/or governance and then there is exercising control/governance outside of one's jurisdiction. What I do in my free time is outside of any GL's jurisdiction. That is not anarchy, that is freedom. Decency would dictate that they stay out of my business.
Brandt
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Post by lauderdale on Sept 24, 2007 21:15:07 GMT
100% correct Bro Brandt!
My views on this are very simple. Except the Law of the Land, and decent behaviour towards others, nobody interferes with what I do in my private life.
Outside of work my employer does not impose on my life, save that I do not work in my spare time for a Trade Competitor, and that I do not come into work unfit through Drink or Drugs (the latter I do not use anyway), which are reasonable requirements.
A Grand Lodge's Rules only obtain within its own ambit.
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Post by lauderdale on Sept 24, 2007 21:33:55 GMT
I shudder when I read the phrase "Blind Obedience". To me it summons up Brown shirts and raised right arms perfumed by the scent of Burning Books, or orchestrated mobs of North Koreans performing street tableau for their Beloved Leader, or the atrocities of the Inquisition. Not a road I wish to go down.
Freemasonry, especially the European variety, has always enshrined Freethinking and eschewed hidebound orthodoxy. Look to the likes of Annie Bessant, Georges Martin, Marie Deraismes etc. "Blind Obedience" ? It has no place in my Freemasonry.
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Post by brandt on Sept 24, 2007 22:36:14 GMT
What is it about the current "mainstream" system that creates a paradigm in which some actually believe that free men can be controlled in such a manner? I am really curious as to the psychology behind it.
Any speech that is contrary to the control a Brother's mind is considered an invitation to anarchy or some such tripe. Where does this come from?
Brandt
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Post by thedixiemason on Sept 24, 2007 23:06:08 GMT
Who ever said that obedience has to be blind? Do you have to be blind to obey?
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