imakegarb
Member
One wee, sleeket, cowran, tim'rous beastie
Posts: 3,573
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Post by imakegarb on Sept 25, 2007 14:33:33 GMT
Hmmmmm. That said . . . my PM to you may have come too late, or just in time, I cannot say. Still . . . Karen, Feel free to put me in touch with whomever you wish. I can say "worry not", but it would be premature, there is more to follow. I sent you a PM :-) As you know I was a Malecraft Mason for 18 years, weighed it in the balance and found it to be wanting and "Demitted" and joined my new Obedience. Bro. Lauderdale, I alway am please to hear about your experience, and how you found your place in the room within Freemasonry that best suits you. For it is one of the great problems with this system of regularity - Brothers, such as you, have a difficult time finding their way to the branch of Freemasonry that best suits them. However, it is my experience that not all Malecraft Masons are suited to Co-Masonry. I hear from quite a few who say what Bro. Brandt said above. And my first concern, always, is that the Craft not lose a good Brother. That goal in mind, I've found it's better that I, first, put them in touch with brothers within their own tradition before I suggest Co-Masonry. Y'see, I believe, firmly, that I practice the most perfect form of Freemasonry on Earth. But I *am* a Co-Mason. I would never, ever have made it as a Femalecraft Mason. I am, at heart, intended for Mixed Masonry. And yet, some women do quite well in Femalecraft Masonry (and I wouldn't mind a chance to visit, once in a while). Everyone's experience, and needs, are different. I try to respond to that. So, when a Malecraft Mason expresses such frustration, I try to put him in touch with other Malecraft Masons. Unless he asks me, specifically, about Co-Masonry and how to get in touch. *That* is different
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Post by leonardo on Sept 25, 2007 14:38:46 GMT
I have been watching this thread and I can see and appreciate the passion some Brethren have on the subject. If I may offer this. The only thing wrong with the status quo is that a moratorium on brains has been called. Freemasons do not need to be controlled, nor should they be controlled. My current GL is a male ony organization. That is fine by me. So my lodge does not initiate, pass or raise women (some could say that fail to initiate a lot of our members also). What moral justification is there in telling a member of a lodge that he cannot visit a mixed gender lodge? He visits representing only himself as a Mason. The problem is not GL rules governing the GL. The problem is the governing outside of their jurisdiction, meaning governing what a man does in his free time. Brandt Thank you for sharing those thoughts Brandt. In many ways they echo my own and is one of the reasons I felt drawn away from wanting to join malecraft Masonry and towards mixed. I think eventually many will come to the same conclusion as your good self and realise the short coming of such draconian attitudes. I wish you well in the steps you are about to take.
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Post by brandt on Sept 25, 2007 15:04:22 GMT
Luck and a lot of work ahead of me.
Brandt
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Post by brandt on Sept 25, 2007 15:07:35 GMT
I am not alone in this endeavor. I am just working with some Brothers.
Brandt
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Post by lauderdale on Sept 25, 2007 15:09:56 GMT
Bro Karen. I read what you say.
Now when I was in my transistional phase from Malecraft UGLE to LDH this time last year, although of course I had discussed matters with my soon to be LDH Brethren I was ultra cautious not to let any of the UGLE members I knew have even the slightest suspicion or scintilla of a clue that I was going to change-over.
With great difficulty I kept matters so secret that the old style Soviet Unions Security Apparat would have been proud of me.
I wrote to UGLE to Resign from them and my Craft Lodge and Chapter so that the letters arrived on the very morning of the day when later on I entered LDH . Subsequently I resigned in good standing from all the other Malecraft Orders etc I was in and none had the slightest foreknowledge of what I had been planing to do until I told them AFTER the event.
Bro Brandt must do things as he wishes but I found that my modus operandi was best in my own case. Do not let the left hand know what the right is doing.
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Post by brandt on Sept 25, 2007 15:13:02 GMT
That is the method I have employed as well. It seems best.
Brandt
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Post by leonardo on Sept 25, 2007 15:38:25 GMT
With great difficulty I kept matters so secret that the old style Soviet Unions Security Apparat would have been proud of me. A regular Morris Cohen
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Post by leonardo on Sept 25, 2007 15:42:42 GMT
I am not alone in this endeavor. I am just working with some Brothers. Brandt That's good to hear. It's nice when you have such sound support at times as this. We look forward to receiving some news in the not to distant future.
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Post by brandt on Sept 25, 2007 16:08:13 GMT
Soon, I promise.
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Post by whistler on Sept 25, 2007 18:52:18 GMT
Bro Whistler you will note my previous paragraph to the one you elect to quote. Please re-read and you might gain a better understanding of what I am saying - and you will have to explain how changing the VSL for a book of blank pages could be considered any sort of Law, or Lore, when nothing therein is written. What I am suggesting that change for change sake does not solve anything - in fact the type of change advocated throughout this thread is nothing more than political correctness and reduces everyone to the LCD. I am not adverse to the taking of an oath on any recognised VSL - it is but a symbol for excellence and perfection - a symbolic statement as to the state of one's own wretchedness and ignorance - a sacred charge to do better. ... If your VSL is different from mine your VSL is certainly not Law to meNow where have I suggested such? This thread is about the status quo - which, as I understand the English language, means to leave things as they are. But, as I have already suggested - I've probably got it all wrong yet again. Wayseer Hello you will have to explain how changing the VSL for a book of blank pages could be considered any sort of Law, or Lore, when nothing therein is written.The Most sacred word or words for many are never spoken but can certainly be visualized in any place at any time even in a blank book. I am not adverse to the taking of an oath on any recognised VSL - it is but a symbol for excellence and perfection
Not sure how you would cope with taking your oath on "Popol Vuj". symbolic statement as to the state of one's own wretchedness and ignorance I for one are certainly not wretched - I like you are a piece of God - Ignorant - yes that is why I am alive Now where have I suggested such? I would be quite happy with a blank book - or even a jar of jam - would you. the only important thing when taking an oath is "Intention" What is wrong with the Status Quo - Nothing - evolution always ensures that the Status Quo is but a pause and doesn't last very long Oh well
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Post by wayseer on Sept 25, 2007 23:18:22 GMT
It would appear that many of you appear terrified of commitment - even the very word frightens you - so the idea of books of blank pages and now jars of jam are in order to be used as the VSL - it lets you off the hook - no real commitment.
As a sign of your fidelity and to render this Obligation binding you will kiss the jam jar once. Oh Boy!
I have learnt that co-masonry seems to filled with disgruntled ex-freemasons who are anything but gruntled with their change in status - yet they still like to be referred to as Masons. I am beginning to see where the various GLs are coming from by advising one to exercise caution in visits to other Lodges. Actually, I don't know that I would consider any such visit in light of the exchanges I read over the last few days.
Methinks it's time to move on.
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Post by maat on Sept 25, 2007 23:28:37 GMT
Sorry Wayseer - but I have personally seen this in action.No need for the apology. You are not alone is witnessing the excesses of GL - but those who make up GL are still Brothers and I would ask you to treat them as such. I have accepted those who belong to similar honourable Orders outside of the 'mainstream' as Brothers. Unless you do not consider them Brothers. May I direct you to the thread you started entitled "Stuff that emanates from GL", and can I assume that you and VW Bro.McGregor have kissed and made up? Maat
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Post by maat on Sept 25, 2007 23:58:51 GMT
It would appear that many of you appear terrified of commitment - even the very word frightens you As a longtime married person with a family, extended family and dependent elderly family (inhouse care situation), holding down a full time professional job, and being a longtime mason who holds office in every lodge and chapter to which I belong, as well as being state treasurer, and contributing the only way I know how to Masonic education (?!) via this forum, and doing regular voluntary work .... I, personally, would beg to disagree. Maat
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Post by whistler on Sept 26, 2007 0:31:12 GMT
Wayseer, I am beginning to understand why your avatar shows a man with his eyes shielded.
When required to kiss a symbolic jar of jam as a sign, that I will. It is not a problem for me - when I make a commitment it is from my heart. The fact that I might kiss The Christian Bible, the Koran, or the jar of jam is not important to me as I would have already made the commitment - the gesture with the man made object will not have any influence on my commitment. Remember everything we do in Freemasonry is symbolic of something unseen. Among many things Freemasonry has always been about is being Personally Responsible for ones actions. When you say you will do something - You alone are responsible for your actions. What or to whom do you bind your obligation to when you make that Kiss? When I make a commitment I am bound to myself - not to the written contents of a Book or the sugar in the Jam jar.
I am sure if after Kissing I broke my obligation it would not concern the Contents of the Book or Jar one iota - but it would cause me considerable concern.
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Post by billmcelligott on Sept 26, 2007 0:46:26 GMT
I had not bothered to read this thread, becuse i assumed it was about a Rock group.
But I feel I have to come to the support of wayseer. There has been some confusuion , so I read from the first post to the last.
Maybe I am daft as wayseer, but what he said makes perfect sense to me.
*Change for change sake, solves nothing. *Change to create an impression solves nothing. *Taking an oath on a Book that means nothing to you solves nothing. *GL's will, like all of us, make some ba**s ups. But one mess up does not make them despots, just as one mess up does not make you and me a criminal. Easy to throw these words around. *To become a good Master you have to first prove yourself a good servant.
whistler says:
Thats the point, breaking your oath should concern you. The whole point of the regulated ritual is to enforce those precepts that we keep harping on about.
As my pal keeps repeating, its about me changing me, not me changing you.
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Post by brandt on Sept 26, 2007 0:52:02 GMT
"As my pal keeps repeating, its about me changing me, not me changing you. "
If that were the case then there would be no need for lodges. There is more to it Brother.
Brandt
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Post by maat on Sept 26, 2007 1:30:58 GMT
*Taking an oath on a Book that means nothing to you solves nothing. *GL's will, like all of us, make some ba**s ups. But one mess up does not make them despots *To become a good Master you have to first prove yourself a good servant. Hi Bill The above list may help to clarify the situation somewhat. Great editing. 1/ Taking an oath on a Book that means nothing to you solves nothing. I think the whole point was that many see the 'book as symbolic of God given law.' The law implanted within each sacred heart. Therefore the Book symbolises everything to the person taking an Obligation. 2/ GL's will, like all of us, make some ba**s ups. But one mess up does not make them despots.I did not call the rulers of the GL's despots!!! Despotism - a government with complete power, authority and control. Clearly they do not posses this. I did see a possibility of abuse with their method of operation. 3/ To become a good Master you have to first prove yourself a good servant.... to your God first, and all that you perceive to be of Him, and then to your fellow man. Maat PS - and when you get right down to it, we are all arguing for what we feel is right even though we disagree over 'words'. So we are all good guys doing the best that we can. (Psst - you know what happened to Jesus when he changed the status quo! Hmmnn - go for it fellas, this bunny is outa here )
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Post by whistler on Sept 26, 2007 2:54:16 GMT
Bill As my pal keeps repeating, its about me changing me, not me changing you. "ME changes ME" and the You's around the ME also change
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Post by billmcelligott on Sept 26, 2007 7:27:58 GMT
"As my pal keeps repeating, its about me changing me, not me changing you. " If that were the case then there would be no need for lodges. There is more to it Brother. Brandt Could not disagree more. how on earth can you possibly think anything can be affected for the better if you yourself are defective. No need for Lodges, you could then say, no need for Churches. Brandt, in my humble opinion, the Lodge is the place of contemplation, the place where you should be striving to build the Temple to the honor and Glory of the Most High. The Temple is you, in my opinion if any Freemason has missed that he / she should go back to the beginning and start again.
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Post by billmcelligott on Sept 26, 2007 7:30:06 GMT
Bill As my pal keeps repeating, its about me changing me, not me changing you. "ME changes ME" and the You's around the ME also change My experience in life has been, all I have the power to control is me, if what I say and do helps you then great. But only you can control you.
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