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Post by lauderdale on Sept 28, 2007 15:03:36 GMT
Frankly, Bro Mike, I just do not see this ever happening so I will sleep peacefully in my bed in the sure and certain knowledge that I will not be having an LDH Masonic Clay Pigeon Shoot or an LDH Car Rally foisted upon me.
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Post by billmcelligott on Sept 28, 2007 15:58:26 GMT
The concepts I have put forward for consideration are all possible.
If it were a Trade Union or a Political Party it would almost be expected.
But because we are Freemasons we are above all that sort of thing. We all keep our oaths and act respectfully at all times. we never lose out temper and respect others. Humerous or not.
We seem to be constantly being given examples of why LDH is better than UGLE. The result of acceptance of this would be that all 'esoteric' and non 'Clay pigeon shooting' Freemasons would obviously leave and join LDH. well if they do good luck and God Bless.
It would seem the majority of the UGLE Masons are quite happy with the Status Quo. I am told by the LDH representatives they are too, but they cant stop themselves from pointing out how much better LDH is. Well thats OK, its human nature to believe what you have is better.
Personally I enjoy chatting about Freemasonry with Co Masons and Female Masons and all the other Masons. I see no need to put down the other Orders to make my points.
I agree with Mike it is an interesting hyperthetical Question, why it should be viewed as odd is odd to me because of course it is hyperthetical.
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Post by parisfred on Sept 28, 2007 16:03:30 GMT
( to Bill on the funny hypothesis ) If this kind of things happen, then the historical way freemasonry react will be as usual : creation of a new GL, more perfect, more regular than the previous one .... The brother of the GOdF don't leave for the DH, even if they are accepted in every meetings for years now , they didn't leave en masse because there is always an attraction by the main historical organisation. Something else : you may believe that co masonry is morally important... but, it is not said that you will like the way LDH works. personnaly I am not a great fan of the AASR in craft lodge that is pratised in 99% of the LDH lodges even if I like to work in a comason lodge. We are focused on the gender, then we'll have the freedom to choose a ritual, an initiatic path. another hypothesis the UGLE allow the creation of lodge masculine, feminine or mixed. What will happen ? the LDH will maybe disappear ? the Feminine gl also... But on the long run the comasons lodges will be the unique model, because they will have twice the number of potential members and will feel more in agreement with moral and society.
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Post by billmcelligott on Sept 28, 2007 16:22:03 GMT
Fred you stole my punchline.
of course your right , if there were an influx of ex UGLE, the new members would of course know many of the UGLE Officers and they may well be able to pursuade UGLE to accept Co Masonry - UGLE may accept that on the understanding it comes under UGLE.
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Post by brandt on Sept 28, 2007 16:24:00 GMT
Well said Brother Fred. It is important that if we as Masons are what we say we are that we maintain an intellectual honesty and moral continuity with the times in which we live. To be or do otherwise would be to render us irrelevent.
Brandt
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Post by billmcelligott on Sept 28, 2007 16:40:20 GMT
The other thing that is a paradox is, if a co mason joins a Lodge that is in amnity with say LDH and UGLE he can then visit UGLE Lodges, because their is no exclusion rule only the inclusion rule.
In other words he is not stopped from visiting becuse he is a member of LDH he is accepted becuse he is a member of a amnity GL.
Now of course that applies to any of the non amnity GL's as well.
The rule says you can not have membership in both UGLE and Co Masonry because it is not recognised.
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Post by lauderdale on Sept 28, 2007 17:42:49 GMT
"UGLE may accept that on the understanding it comes under UGLE."
Now you show how little you understand about LDH. Why the hell would we want to "Come under UGLE"? I'd burn my Apron first!
You have got your Grand Lodge with all its "Works and Pomps" - Good Luck to you and it! We have our Obedience and are happy with that as it is. If anyone in LDH wasn't happy therein they could leave either for UGLE or OWF/HFAF on the one hand dependent on their Gender, or for the GLFWM if they still wanted Co-Masonry but not of the LDH varierty.
As for a huge influx of men from UGLE suddenly wanting to join LDH, we are not stupid and if something like that was to happen I am sure that those of a Higher Position to me in LDH would sense it and be very cautious in the Interview Process of such potential joiners to ascertain if they had a hidden agenda or were true and sincere.
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Post by thedixiemason on Sept 28, 2007 18:47:04 GMT
Spiritually enlightened people do create laws, and they are usually created because certain leaders had the wisdom to see that something needed regulation. If the laws are beneficial, then the "enlightened" ones conform, and the "unenlightened" ones become outlaws. How does this sit with death sentancing? God says "Thou shalt not kill" Law says "Kill" Who is enlightened? The keeper of the commandment or the keeper of the law? Maat Good question... and why is it that the people who are opposed to Capital punishment, are usually the same ones who are for abortion? Not all laws are right, but we must have laws.
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Post by mike on Sept 28, 2007 18:53:53 GMT
Just to say that the idea of the UGLE invading the LDH-BF in this way would be just as disgusting to me as using the Force of Law in the way that kicked off this topic in the first place
As an aside: the comments about "Masons", "revolutions" and "Death penalties" has made me post in the name of a famous Freemason:
Joseph Ignace Guillotin, GOdF
Can you guess why?
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Post by thedixiemason on Sept 28, 2007 18:58:40 GMT
Spiritually enlightened people do create laws, and they are usually created because certain leaders had the wisdom to see that something needed regulation. If the laws are beneficial, then the "enlightened" ones conform, and the "unenlightened" ones become outlaws. How does this sit with death sentancing? God says "Thou shalt not kill" Law says "Kill" Who is enlightened? The keeper of the commandment or the keeper of the law? Maat Maat, my first response didn't actually answer your question. First, the Ten Commandments is not the entire Law...there are actually 613. Second, the word used in the Ten Commandments is "ratsakh" which meant to "murder." It is different from the word "shakat" which is cmmonly used for "kill." Third, and finally, read Numbers Chapter 35, and it will give you the Laws about the cities of refuge being a place where a murderer can go and be safe until his trial. But if found guilty, he is to be put to death.
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Post by thedixiemason on Sept 28, 2007 18:59:55 GMT
Just to say that the idea of the UGLE invading the LDH-BF in this way would be just as disgusting to me as using the Force of Law in the way that kicked off this topic in the first place As an aside: the comments about "Masons", "revolutions" and "Death penalties" has made me post in the name of a famous Freemason: Joseph Ignace Guillotin, GOdF Can you guess why? Um... because he made it efficient?
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Post by lauderdale on Sept 28, 2007 19:07:16 GMT
Bro Dixiemason. I may have posted this before but I have to contradict your hypothesis.
I am in favour of the Death Penalty for willful and deliberate murder and acts of terrorism. Add to that I am in favour of Corporal Punishment such as the birch or the cat of nine tails for acts of violence against the person and gross vandalism.
However I am also in favour of the following - Voluntary Euthanasia, Stem Cell and other Genetic Research, Abortion in general and on demand in the First Trimester, and I favour GM Foods.
So you have a mixture across the board there , not siding with Religious Right nor Liberal Left but, as in almost everything, making up my own mind and following my own Light.
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Post by thedixiemason on Sept 28, 2007 19:11:59 GMT
Bro Dixiemason. I may have posted this before but I have to contradict your hypothesis. I am in favour of the Death Penalty for willful and deliberate murder and acts of terrorism. Add to that I am in favour of Corporal Punishment such as the birch or the cat of nine tails for acts of violence against the person and gross vandalism. However I am also in favour of the following - Voluntary Euthanasia, Stem Cell and other Genetic Research, Abortion in general and on demand in the First Trimester, and I favour GM Foods. So you have a mixture across the board there , not siding with Religious Right nor Liberal Left but, as in almost everything, making up my own mind and following my own Light. You are an exception to the rule. I said "are usually the same ones..."
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Post by corab on Sept 28, 2007 19:39:19 GMT
Brethren, I am going to respectfully bow out of this thread. I cannot abide with the circular arguments and ill-founded accusations that are being levelled at co-masonry, nor with the ulterior motives and devious intentions that have recently come to the fore. I have better things to do with my time and blood-pressure.
S&F,
Cora
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Post by lauderdale on Sept 28, 2007 20:29:52 GMT
I agree with Bro Cora too. I have had enough of silly mind games and hypothetical scenarios which will never occur in the REAL World.
The field is yours Bro Bill, but you'll have to play with yourself now though.
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Post by leonardo on Sept 28, 2007 20:32:29 GMT
Steve, I removed my original comments simply because I am not yet a Mason and it might be unfair for me to add to this level of the debate especially when I really don't know the full score.
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Post by mike on Sept 28, 2007 22:43:08 GMT
Have I missed something???
M
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Post by brandt on Oct 1, 2007 14:07:44 GMT
Brethren all, I would like to thank all of you for your assistance. In the flow of this discussion I have made some decisions. I have chosen Freemasonry, to continue my work as a Freemason, and to place all of my efforts into the propogation of Universal Freemasonry. Brandt
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Post by devoutfreemason on Oct 1, 2007 16:08:36 GMT
Brethren all, I would like to thank all of you for your assistance. In the flow of this discussion I have made some decisions. I have chosen Freemasonry, to continue my work as a Freemason, and to place all of my efforts into the propogation of Universal Freemasonry. Brandt I am glad to hear it Brother. You are the personification of a Freemason.
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Post by brandt on Oct 1, 2007 16:20:15 GMT
I appreciate the sentiment Brother but I am just another worker. There are several that are a far better personification than I.
Brandt
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