|
Post by theplumbtruth on Nov 16, 2009 0:52:13 GMT
Plumbtruth - I don't thing Democracy serves Minorities well, for that reason having smaller Masonic Federations can be a strength Bro Whistler, Might I ask why you feel a minority, assuming your comments refer to yourself and/or New Zealand? Population of your Federation?, race?, inaccessability to headquarters in Paris due to distance? Just curious if you don't mind asking.
|
|
|
Post by whistler on Nov 16, 2009 8:42:24 GMT
My Comments are an observation. As the numbers of anywhere increase so the minorities have difficulties - This applies to political systems as well - Some systems allow special care for their minorities some don't. Imagine Canada with some 40 Million and the USA with some 68 Million becoming one unit with one vote one person - what chance would Canadian interests have. There are advantages in swimming in a small pond - the sharks can't hide over the Horizon And Masonically it is excellent - we can just concentrate on our ceremonies and of course "Service" HGW
|
|
|
Post by corab on Nov 16, 2009 23:18:58 GMT
Bro:. Whistler, It was during the time when a chap from Iceland was the head fellow, he expressed intense dislike of the Besant Ritual ... That information "does not compute'; I can only surmise someone's been telling you half-truths. I can reliably inform you that Bro:. Njordur's own mother lodge works, to give it its proper name, the Lauderdale Ritual, and he remains - as he was then - a staunch supporter of the right of every lodge in our Order choosing any of the rituals authorised for use by the Supreme Council. Indeed that right is -- and long has been -- enshrined in the International Constitution, as well you know. Are you able to enlighten us on those administrative requirements? I am informed that it has always been the case that every MPGC is a member of the Supreme Council (which meets 3 times per year), and that all members are expected to attend as often as possible, although considerable latitude has always been given to those MPGCs travelling from eg Brazil, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa. I am no MPGC, but it seems only logical to me that when one accepts the position, one does so knowing -- as identified in the International Constitution -- that one becomes a member of the Supreme Council, which meets in Paris. Translations have long been simultaneously provided from French/English and recently added in Spanish. Everyone, regardless of nationality, has always had a right of speech. S&F, Cora
|
|
|
Post by magusmasonica on Nov 17, 2009 1:25:58 GMT
Does this really need to turn into an LDH vs.Eastern Order argument? In the USA LDH is dying due to elitism and they don't care. The Eastern Order has only two lodges and it will stay that way for forever because they don't care either.
Want to talk about the problems facing Co-Masonry in the USA? Let's talk about the real issues. Apathy and elitism , both are widespread.
Love and Light,
|
|
|
Post by maat on Nov 17, 2009 2:02:32 GMT
It seems to me that any organisation that relies on their elite being wealthy rather than wise lays itself open to elitism.
Any organisation that restricts its governing body to a very small group lays itself open being undemocratically controlled.
Just observations.
Maat
|
|
|
Post by magusmasonica on Nov 17, 2009 2:54:31 GMT
It seems to me that any organisation that relies on their elite being wealthy rather than wise lays itself open to elitism. Any organisation that restricts its governing body to a very small group lays itself open being undemocratically controlled. Just observations. Maat I can agree.
|
|
|
Post by letterorhalveit3 on Nov 17, 2009 3:10:30 GMT
It seems to me that any organisation that relies on their elite being wealthy rather than wise lays itself open to elitism. Any organisation that restricts its governing body to a very small group lays itself open being undemocratically controlled. Just observations. Maat For clarification purposes, may I enquire as to which co-Masonic body you belong? If you wish not to share that information I repsect that completely.
|
|
|
Post by letterorhalveit3 on Nov 17, 2009 3:13:52 GMT
Does this really need to turn into an LDH vs.Eastern Order argument? In the USA LDH is dying due to elitism and they don't care. The Eastern Order has only two lodges and it will stay that way for forever because they don't care either. Want to talk about the problems facing Co-Masonry in the USA? Let's talk about the real issues. Apathy and elitism , both are widespread. Love and Light, So you are saying that both LDH and the Eastern order are dying out because they are apathetic and elitist. Im not a co-Mason and Im offended. I can only surmise that the co-Masons among us (of which I would think youwould claim to be one, your orders being of your own statement "Co-Masonic") would be equally if not more greatly offended
|
|
|
Post by theplumbtruth on Nov 17, 2009 3:57:30 GMT
Does this really need to turn into an LDH vs.Eastern Order argument? In the USA LDH is dying due to elitism and they don't care. The Eastern Order has only two lodges and it will stay that way for forever because they don't care either. Want to talk about the problems facing Co-Masonry in the USA? Let's talk about the real issues. Apathy and elitism , both are widespread. Love and Light, So you are saying that both LDH and the Eastern order are dying out because they are apathetic and elitist. Im not a co-Mason and Im offended. I can only surmise that the co-Masons among us (of which I would think youwould claim to be one, your orders being of your own statement "Co-Masonic") would be equally if not more greatly offended Brad, I wholeheartedly disagree with your statement about this being an argument between LDH and the Eastern Order. Both Cora and myself have had nothing but polite questions and responses from Whistler. I even stated I duly respect the Eastern order so don't go putting words in my mouth. My experience within LDH for more than 20 years has given me multitude of opportunities to work with all our members from EA to MPGC's. None of which have ever been elitist. Once again, your opinion only. I have sat down to dinner with the former GM Njordur Njardvik and have nothing but the highest esteem for him and what he did to retain the LDH members in the US. I know you started out within LDH and since I'm not privy to your personal experience it's a shame you left with such a slanted, one sided and soured opinion of this Order before giving us our Due and meeting with us on the level.
|
|
|
Post by whistler on Nov 17, 2009 9:14:39 GMT
Let me quite clear, in my view Freemasonry is above any human adminstrative playing around. The Birth of the Eastern Order of International Co-freemasonry took place a few years ago and was initiated by Freemasons who had their reasons. The reasons are not important Freemasonry continues - Our Masters still say " Brn assist me to open the Lodge" It doesn't matter if the lodge is UGLE, LDH, Eastern Order, or any other Freemasons Lodge the working for the light continues. My suggestion to those who seek to disrupt that important work. They should just sit quietly in their Lodge and feel the mysterious all pervasive energy that moves around - they would forget all about worldly matters - and feel the beauty that is Freemasonry. I haven't sat in a Malecraft Lodge so I can't speak for them, but I can say I have sat in an LDH Lodge and an Eastern Order Lodge and can assure you the feeling is exactly the same
|
|
|
Post by corab on Nov 17, 2009 23:14:08 GMT
Does this really need to turn into an LDH vs.Eastern Order argument? In the USA LDH is dying due to elitism and they don't care. The Eastern Order has only two lodges and it will stay that way for forever because they don't care either. It's not an argument, Brad. Whistler made certain statements which I sought to clarify, and subsequently was able to correct. As I said, I suspect someone has been telling him half-truths. This is not a 'them-and-us' -- there's no place for that in real freemasonry, as well you know. But one cannot expect to make profoundly incorrect statements and then to simply walk away blissfully ignorant of the wrongs caused by such misinformation. As regards your claim about elitism in LDH USA, you have told me that your personal encounter did not go as you had hoped, but it is foolish and manifestly unfair to proclaim a whole body of masons to be "elitist" on account of that. I know there is bitterness yet left in you over that, but that doesn't mean you have to level cheap generalistic shots at our American Federation. You're better than that. I know you are. For the record, my regular dealings with the American Federation, from young masons right up to the MPGC himself, paint a very different picture. Not really; I want to talk about Whistler's misrepresentations of the facts. S&F, Cora
|
|
|
Post by letterorhalveit3 on Nov 17, 2009 23:20:57 GMT
Brother Cora-
I think you meant to talk in Magus' direction. And rightly so.
|
|
|
Post by magusmasonica on Nov 17, 2009 23:23:08 GMT
So you are saying that both LDH and the Eastern order are dying out because they are apathetic and elitist. Im not a co-Mason and Im offended. I can only surmise that the co-Masons among us (of which I would think youwould claim to be one, your orders being of your own statement "Co-Masonic") would be equally if not more greatly offended Brad, I wholeheartedly disagree with your statement about this being an argument between LDH and the Eastern Order. Both Cora and myself have had nothing but polite questions and responses from Whistler. I even stated I duly respect the Eastern order so don't go putting words in my mouth. My experience within LDH for more than 20 years has given me multitude of opportunities to work with all our members from EA to MPGC's. None of which have ever been elitist. Once again, your opinion only. I have sat down to dinner with the former GM Njordur Njardvik and have nothing but the highest esteem for him and what he did to retain the LDH members in the US. I know you started out within LDH and since I'm not privy to your personal experience it's a shame you left with such a slanted, one sided and soured opinion of this Order before giving us our Due and meeting with us on the level. Bro. I don't really think that this is the place to go into it in detail. I can telling you that I have a very strong affinity for Le Droit Humaine. I do think however that going from over 100 lodges in 1920 to 14 now should be of huge concearn to Le Droit Humaine members. I know of more than a few enthsiastic would be members of LDH who are now AFHR because LDH let them "die on the vine." You are right though, it is neither my problem nor my business. I did not mean to offend. Love and Light,
|
|
|
Post by corab on Nov 17, 2009 23:32:00 GMT
It seems to me that any organisation that relies on their elite being wealthy rather than wise lays itself open to elitism. What elite? The higher the degree, the greater the service. The International Convention elects the Supreme Council to execute its will -- that of of the International Convention, that is. The last time I saw the the qualifications for 30' and upward material wealth wasn't one of them. On the flip side, any organisation that endeavours to be governed by a very large group hardly ever gets any decisions passed. This is why the very large groups in our organisation entrust their representatives to put forward their wishes and represent their best interests. It's called democracy. It ain't perfect, but it goes a long way. h.g.w., Cora
|
|
|
Post by corab on Nov 17, 2009 23:36:55 GMT
You are right though, it is neither my problem nor my business. I did not mean to offend. None taken on my part -- just go easy on passing public judgement on that which you do not have the full picture of. S&F, Cora
|
|
|
Post by theplumbtruth on Nov 18, 2009 0:09:24 GMT
I know of more than a few enthsiastic would be members of LDH who are now AFHR because LDH let them "die on the vine." You are right though, it is neither my problem nor my business. I did not mean to offend. Love and Light, Thank you Bro. I think you know though your 'die on the vine' analogy is rather simplistic when the split was far far more complicated than that. As regards population of our lodges and LDH in the U.S. in general it inspires me to investigate the ups and downs over the past 100 years. No doubt when Louis Gaouzou (excuse the spelling - I never can get it right!) first traveled about this country he was an enthusiast and inspiration to the beginnings of LDH in North America. Compile that with Womens Suffragist movement it must have been quite the time. Our population certainly ebbed and flowed since them. Now I'm wondering if through the 60's and 70's their was a resurgence complimenting so much change in society as a whole. As in any organization, Masonic or otherwise, a lot depends on your local leadership too. Right now we have WM sitting in the Chair of KS who is a real 'go-getter'. We're initiating people right and left. It's a very exciting time for my lodge.
|
|
|
Post by magusmasonica on Nov 18, 2009 0:16:28 GMT
I know of more than a few enthsiastic would be members of LDH who are now AFHR because LDH let them "die on the vine." You are right though, it is neither my problem nor my business. I did not mean to offend. Love and Light, Thank you Bro. I think you know though your 'die on the vine' analogy is rather simplistic when the split was far far more complicated than that. As regards population of our lodges and LDH in the U.S. in general it inspires me to investigate the ups and downs over the past 100 years. No doubt when Louis Gaouzou (excuse the spelling - I never can get it right!) first traveled about this country he was an enthusiast and inspiration to the beginnings of LDH in North America. Compile that with Womens Suffragist movement it must have been quite the time. Our population certainly ebbed and flowed since them. Now I'm wondering if through the 60's and 70's their was a resurgence complimenting so much change in society as a whole. As in any organization, Masonic or otherwise, a lot depends on your local leadership too. Right now we have WM sitting in the Chair of KS who is a real 'go-getter'. We're initiating people right and left. It's a very exciting time for my lodge. Brother, My "die on the vine" was not in reference to the split but rather what is happening now. Can you imagine if Bro. Gaouzou had livied today? he would have founded 1000 lodges ;D He is a really hero of mine. The "Johnny Appleseed" of intergreted Masonry. Like I said I am very fond of LDH. LDH and us Post-Moderns have much in common. In reality I would like to have a dialog with LDH and I don't desire that with any other Masonic order on a "formal" level. That should tell you something ;D You have a PM, by the way. Love and Light,
|
|
|
Post by maat on Nov 18, 2009 2:51:53 GMT
What elite? The higher the degree, the greater the service. The International Convention elects the Supreme Council to execute its will -- that of of the International Convention, that is. The last time I saw the the qualifications for 30' and upward material wealth wasn't one of them. On the flip side, any organisation that endeavours to be governed by a very large group hardly ever gets any decisions passed. This is why the very large groups in our organisation entrust their representatives to put forward their wishes and represent their best interests. It's called democracy. It ain't perfect, but it goes a long way. Hi Cora.. For Australians/South Americans/Africans/Chinese etc to travel to France 4 times a year would cost $25,000 ? - return flights, accommodation etc... not to mention trying to arrange time off work if one is still 'young and active' in the commercial world. Jesus, himself, could not afford to go at those prices having given up the family business. So as I see it, a lack of money or free time restricts the 'gene pool at the top end of town' - if you don't, or can't, get to 'Head Office' on a regular basis ... no knows anyone. It has been my observation over many years that the hierarchy of any organisation tends to, sooner or later, be reduced to 'the old boys club'. Deny it if you will, but a quick think about your local mothers assoc, boy scout group, Lions or Rotary club will verify what I say. I don't know the answer to this problem either - but I think it a problem nonetheless. I am still of the opinion that democracy rules ok. How much longer does it take to count 100 hands instead of 3, 5, 7.... minutes? Re the query before that - I am LDH and whilst I used the example of getting to our head office in Paris, the same would apply to any other worldwide Order. My example was not meant to be a criticism, more an observation of how things tend to work in real life rather than the ideal world. Maat PS Some of the greatest service providers I have ever seen belong to no Order at all, dedicated nurses and doctors for example. Hospice workers! Grief counsellors. Sometimes I think masons take themselves too seriously.
|
|
|
Post by lauderdale on Nov 18, 2009 5:23:58 GMT
I have been a member of LDH for three years now and one of the refreshing aspects for me is that it is Democratic but is not Elitist. I was for 18 years a member of another Masonic body which was the exact reverse of that and I know which of the two I prefer.
To me Freemasonry is something that I take seriously, it isn't just a hobby as far as I am concerned although my involvement is purely voluntary.
|
|
|
Post by whistler on Nov 18, 2009 6:58:44 GMT
Whistler's misrepresentations of the facts.You are welcome to think so: I really do not have any ill feelings towards the LDH. It is best to live in the present. When the Master asks for help in opening the Lodge the Call goes out into the ether and to the Brn Present. The Esoteric beings and the Brn present answer the call Together we raise a Temple of light within that temple much beauty and much good are present. Each Member of the Lodge is affected in different ways according to their needs. Within our Lodges are many well hidden secrets - not the secrets we can troll the net to find - not the mythical words we talk about - The important secrets have been carefully laid down in our rituals, furniture and symbols - these secrets are revealed uniquely to Brn as they are ready to receive them.
|
|