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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2010 3:18:25 GMT
Instead of opening a new thread, I decide to just ask this question here. Between American co-masonry, LHD and the eastern order which has the most lodges in the U.S. Are any of them declining? I am just curious because world wide there are lot of co-masons to account for. But it seems like co-masonry can not catch on as well in America as it would in Europe since it originated there.
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Post by magusmasonica on Mar 3, 2010 3:38:27 GMT
The Eastern Order has two lodges in the USA. AFHR I believe around twenty five and LDH about twelve.
To think that in 1920 LDH had over one hundred.
Love and Light,
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2010 13:24:00 GMT
Yes, I have heard that LDH had over one hundred lodges at one time. How it ever got to be just twelve lodges is beyond belief. I think that AFHR is going be all right with twenty five lodges. It probably will grow in the future and the eastern order is just getting started maybe in time the eastern order will grow to.
But compared to the LDH here in the U.S. how well is it doing in europe?
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Post by maximus on Mar 3, 2010 16:00:02 GMT
It's the Law of Supply and Demand. There just aren't that many women interested in Masonry now-days. Blame equal rights. Back in the day, it was a big deal to be involved in stuff the guys were - it was daring and seen as striking a blow for feminism. Today, not so much - women have bigger fish to fry, higher glass ceilings to shatter, much more busy lives. The pace that most people operate at today is insane, leaving little to no time for such things as Masonry.
The females on here and other boards are the exceptions. Masonry is simply not on most peoples radar, men or women.
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Post by magusmasonica on Mar 3, 2010 17:54:33 GMT
Thats not true. We have more than enough interest from women. In fact, our next five initiates are all women.
A huge issue however is getting the word out that women can be Masons. Also, the fact that women Freemasons still face harassment from their male counterparts makes things rough of a female Mason. Truth is she will face much more struggles than her male counterpart even if she finds the perfect lodge.
IMHO the situation regarding LDH in the USA is one of stagnancy. They went from serving seekers to be a small group of tight nit friends. For the most part they aren't interested in new people.
That and the mortal would delivered by AFHR hostile takeover of Larkspur.
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Post by parisfred on Mar 3, 2010 19:25:56 GMT
hello, 300 millions in the USA and less than 200 co-masons, on the mainstream side an american free-mason told me less than 300 000 active masons Remember that masonry almost disappeared after the Morgan Affair in the US, in some european country like Germany, Spain, Portugal, France the freemasonry disappeared several time for political and religious reasons. But maybe this time in anglo american country it will disappeared due to its inadequate organization, no enemy, no churches, no fascist or communist only themselves? Maybe the english system of one GL by nation is dying ? But strangely no other system is going to replace it. The GO's in Belgium and France were very clever to recognize mixed lodge and esoteric GL very early ( in the 20s). This way they created an eco system for all kind of experiences but also a more dynamic and interesting image to society. Don't you think that Freemasonry must be one step forward or at least walking at the same pace than the rest of the world we live in. 150 000 active members here, 1% of women in 1905, 10% in the 70s and 25% today.
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Mar 3, 2010 20:47:58 GMT
A huge issue however is getting the word out that women can be Masons. Also, the fact that women Freemasons still face harassment from their male counterparts makes things rough of a female Mason. Truth is she will face much more struggles than her male counterpart even if she finds the perfect lodge. I have not seen evidence of an organized movement against female Masons, and I for one oppose unfair negative treatment against female Masonic orders or actions against them. It is grantable that there is a provision from GLs against joining an order, and it is a provision I support. I do support the recognition of feminine and mixed Freemasonry so far as is deemed feasible by the brethren. I support individual Freemasonry, GL sovereignty and Lodge sovereignty above public opinion. Nothing has historically done more damage than public opinion. A huge issue remains on getting the word out that non-related individuals can be Masons, though the tide is turning in regular Masonry and it is coming back. Although it has faltered over the past decades, the future looks bright for regular Masonry. What the future holds as far as other bodies is anybody's guess. In fact, the one fraternal group that has historical grown rather than weaken is the K.C. It allows neither women nor those who as not Christian (as far as I know AFAIK). Those groups that allowed women have been dropping steadily in the U.S. (Elks, Moose, &c.) Not giving an opinion on what should occur, just the statistical facts as I've seen. It does not seem that a more 'liberal' viewpoint necessarily equates to larger memberships. Nothing should be driven by trying to 'fit in' or make 'more members'. Our lodge is making Masons at a rate not seen in the past few years, and it is becoming difficult to keep up. It should be driven by freedom, integrity, and a desire for justice. Like Kierkegaard said, 'If everyone's a Christian, Christianity ceases to exist'. The same applies to Freemasonry. Paris Fred, that claim of 300k 'active Masons' seems a bit low. The term 'active Masons' is a bit subjective, and often means 'active in the Shrine' for some. Numbers don't make Masons at any rate. Regular Masonry has had its rough patches before, and everything fluctuates. The current condition is nothing compared to what occurred around the Morgan Affair. Some GLs actually had positive growth last year and that trend is likely to continue. It is too bad Bessel's site doesn't seem to get updated that often.
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Post by magusmasonica on Mar 3, 2010 20:59:14 GMT
hello, 300 millions in the USA and less than 200 co-masons, on the mainstream side an american free-mason told me less than 300 000 active masons Remember that masonry almost disappeared after the Morgan Affair in the US, in some european country like Germany, Spain, Portugal, France the freemasonry disappeared several time for political and religious reasons. But maybe this time in anglo american country it will disappeared due to its inadequate organization, no enemy, no churches, no fascist or communist only themselves? Maybe the english system of one GL by nation is dying ? But strangely no other system is going to replace it. The GO's in Belgium and France were very clever to recognize mixed lodge and esoteric GL very early ( in the 20s). This way they created an eco system for all kind of experiences but also a more dynamic and interesting image to society. Don't you think that Freemasonry must be one step forward or at least walking at the same pace than the rest of the world we live in. 150 000 active members here, 1% of women in 1905, 10% in the 70s and 25% today. Brother Fred, 200 seems really low. Considering that AFHR alone has 25 lodges. 25 x 10 members each lodge would equal 250 right there. Speaking for the Grand Orient Egyptian we are in 14 states. Right now we are at about 85% male but that is slowly starting to change. The biggest obsticle is awareness. The second is equal treatment, especially in the eMasonic world. The mahority of Masonic forums are hostile to women and male co-masons. I would love to see this change. Love and Light,
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Mar 3, 2010 21:11:15 GMT
The biggest obsticle is awareness. The second is equal treatment, especially in the eMasonic world. The mahority of Masonic forums are hostile to women and male co-masons. I would love to see this change. Again, I belong to many more Masonic forums (read: too many more) than this and have seen very little hostility toward women and co-masons simply by the nature of their organizations. People who appear to offer fraudulent information and anti-Masons who pretend to be Masons are frowned upon, but I have seen little aside from friendly debate concerning members of unrecognized orders and requests for more information, which is sometimes not forthcoming.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2010 22:03:37 GMT
I agree with maximus on level its not that they are not interested but that many women today may not even know what freemasonry is or they may not know there is option for them.
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Mar 3, 2010 22:07:07 GMT
I agree with this, although I do not see the matter as just one concerning women. Many people simply do not know much about Freemasonry, and the Freemasons have kept it that way for some time now. With other bodies, it may be worse, yet it is the same issue. I agree with maximus on level its not that they are not interested but that to women may not even know what freemasonry is or they may not know there is option for them.
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Post by magusmasonica on Mar 4, 2010 0:13:49 GMT
The biggest obsticle is awareness. The second is equal treatment, especially in the eMasonic world. The mahority of Masonic forums are hostile to women and male co-masons. I would love to see this change. Again, I belong to many more Masonic forums (read: too many more) than this and have seen very little hostility toward women and co-masons simply by the nature of their organizations. People who appear to offer fraudulent information and anti-Masons who pretend to be Masons are frowned upon, but I have seen little aside from friendly debate concerning members of unrecognized orders and requests for more information, which is sometimes not forthcoming. This is a hilarious post. Thanks for the laugh ;D I would say that on many Masonic forums anti-Masons who pretend to be Masons are the vast majority. I agree, it's an issue. As to fradulent information. Sure, that is a issue as well. Such as declaring mainstream Masonry as "regular" and all others as "irregular." Classic misinformation. Love and Light,
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Mar 4, 2010 0:30:36 GMT
Again, I belong to many more Masonic forums (read: too many more) than this and have seen very little hostility toward women and co-masons simply by the nature of their organizations. People who appear to offer fraudulent information and anti-Masons who pretend to be Masons are frowned upon, but I have seen little aside from friendly debate concerning members of unrecognized orders and requests for more information, which is sometimes not forthcoming. This is a hilarious post. Thanks for the laugh ;D I would say that on many Masonic forums anti-Masons who pretend to be Masons are the vast majority. I agree, it's an issue. As to fradulent information. Sure, that is a issue as well. Such as declaring mainstream Masonry as "regular" and all others as "irregular." Classic misinformation. Love and Light, Personally, I have never called anyone 'irregular' in a negative manner to my recollection and only use 'regular' in threads such as this where it has already been used. These definitions are centuries old, and nobody here started them. When someone takes offense at a word, it is not necessarily the initial intention. Basically, it's housekeeping. It is not fraudulent information as the use of the word is older than now, and it applied now as in the past and will do so in the future. 'Certified' could be considered an insult to an uncertified surgeon, but for a person planning an operation the certificate instills more confidence. I agree, fraud is everywhere. People make things up and don't back them up. They make up fake I.D.s and pretend to be something they are not. Even today there have been a couple I've noticed.
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Post by magusmasonica on Mar 4, 2010 0:44:57 GMT
This is a hilarious post. Thanks for the laugh ;D I would say that on many Masonic forums anti-Masons who pretend to be Masons are the vast majority. I agree, it's an issue. As to fraudulent information. Sure, that is a issue as well. Such as declaring mainstream Masonry as "regular" and all others as "irregular." Classic misinformation. Love and Light, Personally, I have never called anyone 'irregular' in a negative manner to my recollection and only use 'regular' in threads such as this where it has already been used. These definitions are centuries old, and nobody here started them. When someone takes offense at a word, it is not necessarily the initial intention. Basically, it's housekeeping. It is not fraudulent information as the use of the word is older than now, and it applied now as in the past and will do so in the future. 'Certified' could be considered an insult to an uncertified surgeon, but for a person planning an operation the certificate instills more confidence. I agree, fraud is everywhere. People make things up and don't back them up. They make up fake I.D.s and pretend to be something they are not. Even today there have been a couple I've noticed. Seeing how it is fact that Masonic Regularity is strictly inner-jurisdictional to label any order outside ones own is incorrect and mis-informative. Yes, there is tons of misinformation out there on the Masonic web. Especially from some that are held up as credible. It has actually reached such a point as to be comic. Much of it directly aimed at female and gender inclusionist Freemasons. Love and Light,
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Mar 4, 2010 1:01:16 GMT
Personally, I have never called anyone 'irregular' in a negative manner to my recollection and only use 'regular' in threads such as this where it has already been used. These definitions are centuries old, and nobody here started them. When someone takes offense at a word, it is not necessarily the initial intention. Basically, it's housekeeping. It is not fraudulent information as the use of the word is older than now, and it applied now as in the past and will do so in the future. 'Certified' could be considered an insult to an uncertified surgeon, but for a person planning an operation the certificate instills more confidence. I agree, fraud is everywhere. People make things up and don't back them up. They make up fake I.D.s and pretend to be something they are not. Even today there have been a couple I've noticed. Seeing how it is fact that Masonic Regularity is strictly inner-jurisdictional to label any order outside ones own is incorrect and mis-informative. Very thin argument. You are the one stating it is incorrect, yet you have not substantiated it in any way. The usage has been substantiated for nearly two centuries. This is YOUR definition, and UNLESS you can prove it the ONLY correct one, or even correct, it is mis-informative. Yes, there is tons of misinformation out there on the Masonic web. Especially from some that are held up as credible. It has actually reached such a point as to be comic. Much of it directly aimed at female and gender inclusionist Freemasons. Love and Light, So, those who are held up as uncredited have merit because some out there? That's ludicrous. Are these claimed 'female and gender inclusionists' aimed at because they are such, or because of other reasons such as an apparant total lack of integrity? I hardly ever, again this is only my experience, see a person singled out just because they are gender inclusionist. This feels like a straw man. Myself, I am a gender inclusionist and have many friends from co-Masonic and femine Masonic bodies. I have never been singled out for my viewpoints, nor have I seen others singled out. In fact, I've seen it more often that U.G.L.E.-recognized Masons are more often singled out than anyone else. Yes, I do think it is getting cartoonish.
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Post by lauderdale on Mar 4, 2010 1:05:30 GMT
I HAVE seen quite vicious hostilty towards Co-Freemasonry on some Masonic Fora. Indeed just over three years ago one of the reasons which convinced me to convert to Co-Freemasonry in Le Droit Humain (LDH) from having been for the 18 years up till then in UGLE was the sheer venom that a small but very vociferous minority of posters from Malecraft Lodges exhibited against LDH. I no longer wished to associated with such attitudes.
Yes, Co-Freemasonry is still not as widely known as Malecraft Freemasonry and many people still believe that Women cannot be Freemasons although I could introduce anyone who wished to many and indeed LDH's present Grand Master is a woman.
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Mar 4, 2010 1:14:43 GMT
I am sorry to hear of that, as I do not think it should happen. I am only speaking to my experience. I have not seen this occur, and try to be understanding of other paths. I should mention that I have read just as vociferous posts against U.G.L.E. recognized lodges similar to what you claim. It's not right coming from either direction. I HAVE seen quite vicious hostilty towards Co-Freemasonry on some Masonic Fora. Indeed just over three years ago one of the reasons which convinced me to convert to Co-Freemasonry in Le Droit Humain (LDH) from having been for the 18 years up till then in UGLE was the sheer venom that a small but very vociferous minority of posters from Malecraft Lodges exhibited against LDH. I no longer wished to associated with such attitudes. Yes, Co-Freemasonry is still not as widely known as Malecraft Freemasonry and many people still believe that Women cannot be Freemasons although I could introduce anyone who wished to many and indeed LDH's present Grand Master is a woman.
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Post by magusmasonica on Mar 4, 2010 19:07:52 GMT
Seeing how it is fact that Masonic Regularity is strictly inner-jurisdictional to label any order outside ones own is incorrect and mis-informative. Very thin argument. You are the one stating it is incorrect, yet you have not substantiated it in any way. The usage has been substantiated for nearly two centuries. This is YOUR definition, and UNLESS you can prove it the ONLY correct one, or even correct, it is mis-informative. Yes, there is tons of misinformation out there on the Masonic web. Especially from some that are held up as credible. It has actually reached such a point as to be comic. Much of it directly aimed at female and gender inclusionist Freemasons. Love and Light, So, those who are held up as uncredited have merit because some out there? That's ludicrous. Are these claimed 'female and gender inclusionists' aimed at because they are such, or because of other reasons such as an apparant total lack of integrity? I hardly ever, again this is only my experience, see a person singled out just because they are gender inclusionist. This feels like a straw man. Myself, I am a gender inclusionist and have many friends from co-Masonic and femine Masonic bodies. I have never been singled out for my viewpoints, nor have I seen others singled out. In fact, I've seen it more often that U.G.L.E.-recognized Masons are more often singled out than anyone else. Yes, I do think it is getting cartoonish. Sorry that you find strictly factual information to be a "think" argument, but that really isn't my problem. I never said that "uncredited" have merit. I have zero responsibility for your spin. Your are not a gender inclusionist, if you where you would be fighting for your Grand Lodge to make drastic changes. I am not aware of you doing this. Love and Light,
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Mar 4, 2010 20:35:04 GMT
Very thin argument. You are the one stating it is incorrect, yet you have not substantiated it in any way. The usage has been substantiated for nearly two centuries. This is YOUR definition, and UNLESS you can prove it the ONLY correct one, or even correct, it is mis-informative. So, those who are held up as uncredited have merit because some out there? That's ludicrous. Are these claimed 'female and gender inclusionists' aimed at because they are such, or because of other reasons such as an apparant total lack of integrity? I hardly ever, again this is only my experience, see a person singled out just because they are gender inclusionist. This feels like a straw man. Myself, I am a gender inclusionist and have many friends from co-Masonic and femine Masonic bodies. I have never been singled out for my viewpoints, nor have I seen others singled out. In fact, I've seen it more often that U.G.L.E.-recognized Masons are more often singled out than anyone else. Yes, I do think it is getting cartoonish. Sorry that you find strictly factual information to be a "think" argument, but that really isn't my problem. Where did you present facts? I see none, but I agree. Facts aren't your problem. I never said that "uncredited" have merit. I have zero responsibility for your spin.
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FireMist
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Post by FireMist on Mar 4, 2010 21:53:53 GMT
I HAVE seen quite vicious hostilty towards Co-Freemasonry on some Masonic Fora. Indeed just over three years ago one of the reasons which convinced me to convert to Co-Freemasonry in Le Droit Humain (LDH) from having been for the 18 years up till then in UGLE was the sheer venom that a small but very vociferous minority of posters from Malecraft Lodges exhibited against LDH. I no longer wished to associated with such attitudes. Yes, Co-Freemasonry is still not as widely known as Malecraft Freemasonry and many people still believe that Women cannot be Freemasons although I could introduce anyone who wished to many and indeed LDH's present Grand Master is a woman. As is ours Lauderdale. Thank you for this sane post in the midst of insanity. There are other groups which have not even been mentioned. Numbers within the lodge have to to be enough to sustain a lodge and the physical structure where meetings take place. Things are not getting any cheaper, nor are property taxes and utilities. Not speaking for my obedience, but I know we are not unusual in that we have to have around a dozen of at least a third degree to even start a triangle. (seed of a lodge to be) To support a certified lodge..... well, let's just say it takes much more than that. To argue how many here or how many there is just simply silliness. Thank you for your piece of sanity in this midst.
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