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Post by leonardo on Mar 23, 2008 14:25:26 GMT
I haven't read any of his work yet but it seems this writer has written a few books on women in Freemasonry: Women Freemasons of the Past
Modern Female Freemasonry
Woman and FreemasonryAll of which can be found here.
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imakegarb
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Post by imakegarb on Mar 26, 2008 14:17:37 GMT
Thanks Bro. Leo ;D I've read his "Woman and Freemasonry". From what I read then, he's under the mistaken impression that bodies such as Order of Eastern Star are good substitutes for Masonry (though I doubt he would find it at all acceptable for himself). In places, he even refers to such bodies as "women's Masonry", which is just flat out wrong. However, he is good for listing names of women Freemasons (after strenuously stating they can't be such) and for dates and places. So I find him useful in that regard. I will see about finding the other two volumes
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Post by leonardo on Mar 26, 2008 14:27:13 GMT
Thanks for that. I wasn't aware he was/is essentially anti-women in Masonry. I thought from the titles he was supportive of them in the Craft. I am, to be honest, disappointed.
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Post by maximus on Mar 26, 2008 19:47:09 GMT
Thanks for that. I wasn't aware he was/is essentially anti-women in Masonry. I thought from the titles he was supportive of them in the Craft. I am, to be honest, disappointed. Goes to prove the old saw "you can't judge a book by it's cover."
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Post by leonardo on Mar 26, 2008 20:20:48 GMT
Thanks for that. I wasn't aware he was/is essentially anti-women in Masonry. I thought from the titles he was supportive of them in the Craft. I am, to be honest, disappointed. Goes to prove the old saw "you can't judge a book by it's cover." Yes, a great example. But I'm glad to learn Karen gained some value from reading what she did. Which leads conveniently to the fact that from all experiences we learn something.
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Post by maximus on Mar 26, 2008 21:15:28 GMT
Which leads conveniently to the fact that from all experiences we learn something. In the Army, we refered to this as "Lessons Learned." ;D
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imakegarb
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Post by imakegarb on Mar 27, 2008 3:29:08 GMT
I don't know that I'd call him anti-woman in Masonry. Based on what of his work I read, he really seemed to think these substitutes were, in fact, a form of women's Masonry. I've encountered quite a few Masons - and not a few women - who believe that. In that way, he's just writing what he thinks. And sees nothing negative about it.
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Post by leonardo on Mar 27, 2008 7:27:34 GMT
When were his books written?
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Mar 27, 2008 7:47:26 GMT
When were his books written? Woman and Freemasonry was published in 1922, right in the midst of UGLE entrenching the 'No Women!' rule, in the face of LDH establishing itself. Despite the promising title, Wright wrote (pp. xiv & xv): The question as to whether or not women should be admitted into the ranks of Orthodox Freemasonry cannot here be discussed. As the author is proud to claim membership of Lodges with the Jurisdiction of the United Grand Lodge of England, any discussion on this point would be unbecoming. In contrast, J.S.M. Ward, writing in 1923, felt at liberty to advocate the admission of women in, Freemasonry: Its Aims and Ideals.
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Post by leonardo on Mar 27, 2008 8:13:24 GMT
When were his books written? Woman and Freemasonry was published in 1922, right in the midst of UGLE entrenching the 'No Women!' in the face of LDH establishing itself. Despite the promising title, Wright wrote (pp. xiv & xv): The question as to whether or not women should be admitted into the ranks of Orthodox Freemasonry cannot here be discussed. As the author is proud to claim membership of Lodges with the Jusisdiction of the United Grand Lodge of England, any discussion on this point would be unbecoming. Thanks for that. He was, it could be argued, reflective of his time. Very few men back then were able to appreciate women in the Craft, but thankfully we continue, albeit slowly, to make progress as more and more are beginning to see that one's gender is no barrier to becoming a Mason.
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FireMist
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Post by FireMist on Mar 27, 2008 11:22:20 GMT
Woman and Freemasonry was published in 1922, right in the midst of UGLE entrenching the 'No Women!' rule, in the face of LDH establishing itself. Despite the promising title, Wright wrote (pp. xiv & xv): The question as to whether or not women should be admitted into the ranks of Orthodox Freemasonry cannot here be discussed. As the author is proud to claim membership of Lodges with the Jurisdiction of the United Grand Lodge of England, any discussion on this point would be unbecoming. In contrast, J.S.M. Ward, writing in 1923, felt at liberty to advocate the admission of women in, Freemasonry: Its Aims and Ideals. Random thought following this thread; It sounds much like he chose to keep his opinions to himself for self preservation....A PC correct move for that time. Later, when things lightened up, or he didn't have as much to loose he may have been more comfortable stating his thoughts....or just trying to make a correction to his previous decision. I've noticed humans in general do som odd things when trying to do what they think is right. Yet at the same time trying to make eveyone arund them happy by not causing waves, often causes them to not complete the task. (personal experience)
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imakegarb
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Post by imakegarb on Mar 29, 2008 4:23:22 GMT
You have hit upon something there. I've read a number of Masonic histories and I've seen a number of occasions where writers have denied women *can* be Freemasons; then they detail the rare occasions where it was known to have happened.
In his "Masonic Harvest", Carl Claudy has an entire chapter on women Freemasons. He spends page after page explaining why women can't possibly be Freemasons. Then he lists them by name and describes their stories.
It reminds me, a bit, of journalism in the old Soviet Union. Denial of the truth as the only way of stating it.
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Mar 29, 2008 6:39:05 GMT
In researching the subject of Craftswomen, I repeatedly came across evidence of women involved in stonemasonry which had been disregarded because of the mainstream masonic perspective whereby, if women were involved, it couldn't have been stonemasonry!?
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imakegarb
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Post by imakegarb on Mar 29, 2008 16:24:13 GMT
This phenomenon is not exclusive to women stonemasons. Robert Temple did a study that was published a while back (in Freemasonry Today, BTW) called " Forbidden Technology". In it, he described the existence of lenses as far back as the 8th Century BCE. Something that most scholars, historians and archaeologists said just couldn't be. It just couldn't. Says Temple: Most Male-only Masonic scholars - and rank and file Male-only Masons with them - have done the same in reference to women stone and Freemasons. They have been deaf, dumb and blind to the clear and present existence of women stonemasons in the operative period and women Freemasons throughout the speculative period. The only reason it isn't still universally happening is because enough Male-only Masons are no longer willing to do that. And that is the *only* reason it no longer universally happens.
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imakegarb
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Post by imakegarb on Mar 30, 2008 15:55:14 GMT
Bro. Leo, I picked up "Woman and Freemasonry" this morning and I noted there are chapters named the other two titles you give above. So I think the three titles you give above are from the same book. It also gave me a chance to reread it and recognized, again, that Wright went about writing about Women Freemasons much as we've been describing. Wright states, at length, that women can't be Freemasons - they just can't - and that, as Bro. Tamrin pointed out, "any discussion on this point would be unbecoming." Having stated the expected disclaimer (not to mention chapter after chapter of referring to rites of adoption and other such as women's Masonry), Wright, in Chapter 6, "Woman Freemasons", he begins by stating the following (with my italics): Please note the wording. "Duly initiated" And that it would be erroneous to say Bro. Aldworth as "the only woman ever to obtain the honour". Both of these statements, on the part of Bro. Wright, are true. Though, clearly, he could insert these peas of truth only under the mattresses of expected, conventional disclaimer. There is no way these statements (and a few other gems in the book) ever would have been published otherwise. Which is why I do not think he is anti-woman, or even Anti-Woman Freemason, exactly. For all I know, he really was against women entering the Craft. Despite this, I recognize it took courage to write this. In so doing, he gives me - and others who care to notice - direction in which to look elsewhere. And for that, I appreciate him. Examples like Wright's work (there are many such examples) drive home to me that what, in fact, happened isn't as simple as saying it's a case of evil, knuckle dragging men keeping defenseless women from the Light. Instead, it is far more complicated. In Wright's case, it is a good man doing the best he can with what he has and within the confines of his time and circumstances. Also within these confines, we have instances of women who persevere and manage to achieve what many say can't be done. There also are women who died with their callings intact. Likewise, women were included among those who insisted it couldn't be done. BTW, Phoenix Masonry includes Wright's " Woman and Freemasonry" in its Library.
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FireMist
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Post by FireMist on Mar 30, 2008 23:41:29 GMT
In researching the subject of Craftswomen, I repeatedly came across evidence of women involved in stonemasonry which had been disregarded because of the mainstream masonic perspective whereby, if women were involved, it couldn't have been stonemasonry!? Yes, it could have been stonemasonry, but then how do you explain references to women in other trades not of stonemasonry, which give reference relating women masons and freemasons? Searches of Women in trades in the 18th century. Cordwainers(shoemakers), cobblers, tinsmiths, blacksmiths, coppersmiths, turners, joiners, carpenters, coopersmiths, butchers, producers, printers.........Such searches online and in the OSU University library brought me to learn of women Freemasons and later Co-Masonry. I've found that women were also involved as active participants in fire brigades in the 18th and 19th century.. though a minority, They were there. I mention that, because though I and many others are firefighters today, there are still those who claim women can't be firefighters....Same goes for many trades. Most of us (men and women) in this trade are just human beings with a set of skills we wish to put to best use for the betterment of our communities, and the courage to do what we know to be right and true. The vast majority of us will never be heard of past our retirement and death. There are only a few firefighters, through chance and mishap, which will be remembered beyond the roster of a name. This seems to be the manner some women freemasons have had chance to be remembered. What about others who were but a name in a lodge?
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Mar 31, 2008 7:36:16 GMT
In researching the subject of Craftswomen, I repeatedly came across evidence of women involved in stonemasonry which had been disregarded because of the mainstream masonic perspective whereby, if women were involved, it couldn't have been stonemasonry!? Yes, it could have been stonemasonry, but then how do you explain references to women in other trades not of stonemasonry, which give reference relating women masons and freemasons?I am puzzled by what seems to be a non sequitur. Why should my point that there were women stonemasons require an explanation relating to women in other trades? It is a given! (BTW, the term 'mason' encompasses more trades than stonemasonry). Claudia Opitz , in writing about the Middle Ages, tells us that, ‘... women worked in fields that today are more likely to be considered “typically male,” such as metalworking and the construction trade.’ E. Dixon, in an article entitled, ‘ Craftswomen in the Livre des Métiers’ (Book of the Crafts) , set forth a study, focusing on the role of women in thirteenth century Parisian Crafts, as derived from a compilation of, ‘ …careful and accurate digests of their traditions, ancient rights and privileges, interior trade-organization, and the like…’ In Dixon’s introductory paragraphs , we read that, with only a few specified exceptions, the employment conditions of both craftsmen and craftswomen were exactly the same, being applied with ‘ entire impartiality.’ In Dixon’s closing paragraphs, we read: …there is no trace in the Livre des Métiers of the modern [late 19th century] view that good industrial training and anything above a bare subsistence wage are unnecessary and superfluous for working women, because their labour is merely a bye-product before marriage. Toulmin Smith’s English Gilds was also compiled from reports of guilds, etc. (in this case from the late fourteenth century). In it, his daughter Lucy reports, by way of post-humus introduction to his late nineteenth century publication: Scarcely five out of the [over] five hundred were not formed equally of men and women, which, in these times of the discovery of the neglect of ages heaped upon women, is a noteworthy fact. Even where the affairs were managed by a company of priests, women were admitted as lay members; and they had many of the same duties and claims upon the Gild as the men. The guilds of priests (e.g., Brentano, in T. Smith, ibid., p.lxxxviii) and those of scholars would more than account for the scarce five that did not admit women. This ratio of more than 99% of guilds admitting women is corroborated by R.F. Gould, who, while he maintained that Stonemasons excluded women, never-the-less wrote of the guilds in his History (v.1, p.90), saying: ‘ Not one out of a hundred but recruited their ranks from both sexes...’ He continued (ibid.), saying: And even in guilds under the management of priests, such as the Brotherhood of ‘Corpus Christ’ of York, begun in 1408, lay members were allowed (of some honest craft), without regard to sex, if ‘of good fame and conversation’ the payments and privileges being the same for the ‘brethren and sisteren.’ Women ‘were sworne upon a book in the same manner as the men.' Sources:E. Dixon, ‘Craftswomen in the Livre des Métiers,’ The Economic Journal, Vol. 5, No. 18, 209-228. Jun., 1895 Gould, Robert Freke, 1882, The History of Freemasonry: Its Antiquities, Symbols, Constitutions, Customs, Etc. – Embracing an Investigation of the Records of the Organisations of the Fraternity in England, Scotland, Ireland, British Colonies, France, Germany, and the United States - Derived from Official Sources, Thomas C. Jack, London Claudia Opitz, 1992, ‘Life in the Late Middle Ages’, in C. Klapische-Zuber (Editor), A History of Women in the West: Vol. II, Silences of the Middle Ages, Harvard University Press, Massachusetts Toulmin Smith (Editor), 1963 (org. 1870), English Gilds: The Original Ordinances of More than One Hundred Early English Gilds Together with Ye olde Usages of ye Cite of Wynchestre The Ordinances of Worcester The Office of the Mayor of Bristol and The Costomary of the Manor of Tettenhal=Regis from Manuscripts of the Fourteenth and Fifteenth Centuries, with intro. & glossary, etc. by L.T. Smith and an essay by L. Brentano, Oxford University Press, London (for The Early English Text Society)
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FireMist
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Post by FireMist on Mar 31, 2008 11:36:17 GMT
Agreed. masons. stone masons, brick masons, tilers etc....
Pardon me, no offense meant. Your post read as though you thought the references to women in masonry, were only masonry, and not freemasonry. Hence the reason I brought up other trades not related to masonry. I found many references in those various searches. BTW, my reasearch was about women in the family trades rather than solely prior to for marriage. I find very references to single women in any trades outside the family unit. Most are the wives or mothers of the unit.
Obviously I misread your post. My 2cents worth isn't worth the copper.
Sorry about that.
I am glad you posted the rest of that. Thank you...something to chew on.
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Mar 31, 2008 12:13:25 GMT
No worries - you're welcome.
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Post by ingo on Apr 4, 2008 13:52:57 GMT
Dear Tamrin,
would it be possible for you to send me both articles by eMail? Thank you very much for your kind assistance.
E. Dixon, ‘Craftswomen in the Livre des Métiers,’ The Economic Journal, Vol. 5, No. 18, 209-228. Jun., 1895
Claudia Opitz, 1992, ‘Life in the Late Middle Ages’, in C. Klapische-Zuber (Editor), A History of Women in the West: Vol. II, Silences of the Middle Ages, Harvard University Press, Massachusetts
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