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Post by corab on Feb 14, 2008 12:41:21 GMT
Interesting to see this thread's come back to life again.
4 months down the line the only answer -- with respect to my Order -- remains that the absence of dogma and total freedom of conscience are landmarks for us. In my personal opinion we would fail those landmarks if we allowed any dogma with respect to a potential candidate's sexual orientation to guide our hand when we place the ballot ball in the drawer of our choice.
We admit candidates upon merit - period.
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Post by penfold on Feb 14, 2008 13:52:30 GMT
We admit candidates upon merit - period. I think that is something that is universal to all Grand Lodges, I don't know of any GL or Council that specifically excludes people based on their sexual orientation. It certainly appears to have come across that way in this thread.
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Post by leonardo on Feb 14, 2008 14:06:33 GMT
Then in the same kind of lodges their is the issue of the Great Light of Masonry - the Bible upon which the would be Gay candidate is taking his oath on - I don't think I have to point out what the Bible says about this topic. Accusations of homosexuality have ever been tediously typical add-ons to accusations of heresy, possibly lest finer points of theological objections were lost on the wider public and so as to sway them with salacious moral panics. It was the case with the priesthood of Asherah, and with the early church, the Albigensians (from a sect of which we trace the term "buggery"), to the Knights Templar and even Freemasons have been suspected of such because of our homosocial exclusion of women. One finds the priests and priestesses of Asherah were designated respectively as the "Kadosh" and the "Kadoshah", meaning "holy," although these have been translated as "sodomites" and "prostitutes". The Masonic group designated as "Kadosh," in the ne plus ultra degree, prefer the former meaning in reference to themselves. This link has some interesting observations on the whole Bible/Homosexual issue: bible-truths.com/homosex.htm
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Post by penfold on Feb 14, 2008 15:33:16 GMT
Interesting?
One way of phrasing it Leo!
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Post by lauderdale on Feb 14, 2008 18:16:21 GMT
Bro Leo, I always laugh when I read such website as that one, then I feel a little bit ashamed as after all my Mother told me never to make fun of the physically or mentally afflicted.
They have some things wrong anyway. Christ DID condemn child molesters, "It would be better that a millstone be tied around their necks and they be drowned in the depths of the sea" Secondly there WAS the death penalty for theft over a certain value and there are recorded cases of children being hanged in England for stealing. Thankfully this was abolished.
I tend to avoid these websites as their adherents suffer from Religion as some folk suffer from Cancer. All I would say to them is "Judge ye not that ye be not judged"
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Post by whistler on Feb 14, 2008 18:58:03 GMT
What If a Hetrosexual wanted to join Co Masonry What if a Black Person wanted to join Co Masonry What if a Alien wanted to join Co Masonry What if a Malecraft Mason wanted to join Co Masonry What a load of nonsense Oops I for Got a Few What if a Welshman wanted to join Co Mason
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Post by billmcelligott on Feb 14, 2008 21:31:03 GMT
I will tell my Hetro, Black Alien friend not to bother then.
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imakegarb
Member
One wee, sleeket, cowran, tim'rous beastie
Posts: 3,573
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Post by imakegarb on Feb 14, 2008 21:32:10 GMT
Bro. Whister . . . Indeed ;D Bro. Bill, if y'all won't have him, do send him our way They have some things wrong anyway. Christ DID condemn child molesters, "It would be better that a millstone be tied around their necks and they be drowned in the depths of the sea"In fairness, Jesus wasn't being specific to child molesters in this passage, namely Luke 17. Taken in context, he would seem to be referring to anyone who causes/encourages/tricks/etc. anyone into sinning. Here's what the passage says: I suppose that might cover child molesters, though I can't imagine, in any way, that a child molester causes his/her victim to sin. But I could be wrong there. And when he follows that warning with one to his disciples to watch themselves . . . if he's talking about child molesters . . . well, I hope his disciples didn't have this problem. I don't recall any passage where Jesus specifically condemns child molesters. I also don't think he should have to as some things can just be understood.
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Post by leonardo on Feb 14, 2008 21:34:40 GMT
I provided the above link as there was mention is some earlier posts concerning homosexuals and what the Bible might say about them. I'm certainly no expert on any religion, let alone a Christian one, but feel this particular site puts a strong (Bible) argument for why it is considered a sin by some of those who follow Bible based religions.
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Post by lauderdale on Feb 14, 2008 22:09:05 GMT
Bro Whistler, I can't sepak of the Alien, I assume you mean an Extra Terrestrial, but I cannot imagine any problem with a Black, or a Heterosexual becoming a Co-Mason if they were otherwise suitable, and as for a Malecraft Mason joining Co-Masonry, I DID!
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Post by lauderdale on Feb 14, 2008 22:16:35 GMT
Karen, I suppose it depends what translation you use. Now I don't have a Bible here to hand but as I recall Christ was speaking to the Disciples and there were children around. One of the Apostles went to chase them away when Our Lord said "Suffer Little Children to come unto me" He then remarked that we would have to come to the Kingdom of Heaven as little children and then made his remakrks that "if anyone scandalises these little ones it would be better that a millstone be tied around his neck and he be drowned in the depth of the sea"
Now this is , like most of the Bible, open to interpretation but I would take it refer to Paedophiles.
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Post by lauderdale on Feb 14, 2008 22:21:09 GMT
Bro Leo, not being critical of yourself for posting the link. My reproof is for those who construct such sites and have such narrow minded bigotry especially when they use Christ as the brand name to sell their views.
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Post by maat on Feb 14, 2008 22:42:25 GMT
I think that is something that is universal to all Grand Lodges, I don't know of any GL or Council that specifically excludes people based on their sexual orientation. I fancy blokes and they won't let me in....
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Post by whistler on Feb 14, 2008 23:27:58 GMT
Bro Whistler, I can't sepak of the Alien, I assume you mean an Extra Terrestrial, but I cannot imagine any problem with a Black, or a Heterosexual becoming a Co-Mason if they were otherwise suitable, and as for a Malecraft Mason joining Co-Masonry, I DID!I would love to sit in Lodge with ET as Senior Deacon
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imakegarb
Member
One wee, sleeket, cowran, tim'rous beastie
Posts: 3,573
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Post by imakegarb on Feb 15, 2008 2:03:33 GMT
Karen, I suppose it depends what translation you use. Now I don't have a Bible here to hand. . ." I own 12, including one in Hebrew and one in Greek I also own a Gospels Parallels, which allows me to compare similar passages from the Synoptic Gospels. Really, not kidding, I enjoy a good Bible study Hmmmmm. I would indeed like to know the translation. For it would be unlike any other translation of the passage (Matthew 19, Luke 18 and Mark 10) that ever I've seen. So, if you can find it, I'd like to see it. Not unless Jesus is the Pedophile in question. All three passages are very clear on this point, that folks brought their kids (Luke says infants) to Jesus for him to bless and his disciples "rebuke" them. Jesus tells the disciples to chill and turns it into a lesson. Says he (and all three Gospels agree on this, which means it's quite likely a historical saying, or at least a saying confidently accepted as Jesus'): Jesus tells his disciples that they must receive the Kingdom of Heaven like a child will not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. Then he lays hands on them and blesses them. The next section in all three Gospels deals with the rich young man, no more talk of the kids. And no mention of the "scandalizes" section you mention. Truly, I don't think the section is about pedophiles. I think it's about how we are to receive the Kingdom of Heaven (like a child). Again, I don't know of a section where Jesus specifically condemns pedophiles. However, I also don't recall a section where he condemned those who pinch the wings off of flies, cheat on their exams or steal from beggars. That doesn't mean he condoned any of these practices. In fact, given the context his teachings as a whole (as they've been handed down to us), I think it safe to say he did condemn pedophiles. So I think he did. I just don't find it in the Gospels. I'm sorry, but I don't.
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Post by maximus on Feb 15, 2008 2:08:56 GMT
Do people really need to have things spelled out for they so precisely? I mean, come on, wrong is wrong. We know bad when we see it! Having it written down in a book dosen't make it "officially" wrong.
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Post by maat on Feb 15, 2008 3:20:27 GMT
Do people really need to have things spelled out for they so precisely? I mean, come on, wrong is wrong. We know bad when we see it! Having it written down in a book dosen't make it "officially" wrong. I'm with you Maximus. That is why I think that what we protect in the s... and s... repository of the heart is much more valuable than any book imaginable. Just my thoughts. Maat PS And killing brothers because it is 'officially' sanctioned does not make it right.
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Post by sniffles on Feb 15, 2008 3:30:47 GMT
Bro Whistler, I can't sepak of the Alien, I assume you mean an Extra Terrestrial, but I cannot imagine any problem with a Black, or a Heterosexual becoming a Co-Mason if they were otherwise suitable, and as for a Malecraft Mason joining Co-Masonry, I DID!I would love to sit in Lodge with ET as Senior Deacon The Alien needs to have arms like us, or he can't make signs and grip us. He needs to have a larynx like us so he could say the passwords. He would need legs and feet to circumambulate and go on the steps. And if he lacked familiar genitals, then malecraft Masonry... or at least most of the brothers at my Lodge wouldn't know what to do with it. Such is the state of our masonry on our side of the fence. They asked me all sorts of intimate and off the wall questions when I joined, then they did a background check, and called everyone I know and asked them very intimate questions; but I past the Gantlet. They would prolly first ask this alien: "Sir...or ma'am... what is that??"
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Post by leonardo on Feb 15, 2008 9:31:57 GMT
Bro Leo, not being critical of yourself for posting the link. My reproof is for those who construct such sites and have such narrow minded bigotry especially when they use Christ as the brand name to sell their views. I hear what you are saying and know where you are coming from. The link was simply in response to those who use the Bible to support their assertion that homosexuality is a sin, and after reading what L. Ray Smith said on the subject, and if his presentation of the Scriptures are indeed correct, then I can see why it is considered a sin from a scriptural perspective. Is he (L. Ray Smith) correct? I don't know. I am no expert on Bible scripture. But if he is correct then it does look as though the writers of the New Testament found the homosexual lifestyle objectionable. That is all I am saying. Apparently if anyone wishes to take issue with anything he has written on his website they are free to e-mail him personally. He seems happy to respond to those who feel he has misrepresented the Bible or Scriptures in anyway.
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Post by maximus on Feb 15, 2008 15:51:37 GMT
Ever notice that this subject comes up, sooner or later, on every masonic discussion board?
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