ruffashlar
Member
Lodge Milncroft No. 1515 (GLoS), Govanhill Royal Arch Chapter 523 (S.G.R.A.C.S.)
Posts: 2,184
|
Post by ruffashlar on Jan 24, 2005 17:01:47 GMT
Very interesting, atarnaris.
Especially since Greek is an Indo-European language, and the names of the Greek letters come directly out of Phoenician, a Semitic one.
Alpha is Alef (Ox [plough]), Beta is Beth (House), Gamma is Gimel (Camel), Delta is Daleth (Door [in a tent]), and so on.
While there may be a long and involved tradition of this ancient prayer in Greek mystical culture, you could make the same case for an English language prayer using the Roman alphabet:
Absolute Beauty Comes Divinely, Eternal Father, God, Healer: In Jehovah, Knowledge Limitless, Magnificent Nous, Omniscient Potentate. Quondam Reigned Sovereign Thine Understanding. Victorious Warrior, eXcels Yahweh, Zealously
That's just a bit of nonsense, but I'm not rubbishing what you say. Rabbinical lore makes even stranger and less likely calls upon the Phoenician (Hebrew) alphabet in the service of textual criticism; ditto the Cabala. So, it's still a valid tool of inquiry and contemplation; just, perhaps, not quite the "hidden tradition" you seem to claim.
Don't lose sight of the possibility that, as a Greek, you may unconsciously ascribe grandiloquent fancies to the land of your fathers, when they may have no basis in objective fact.
|
|
|
Post by atarnaris on Jan 24, 2005 21:16:15 GMT
Very interesting, atarnaris. Especially since Greek is an Indo-European language, and the names of the Greek letters come directly out of Phoenician, a Semitic one. Alpha is Alef (Ox [plough]), Beta is Beth (House), Gamma is Gimel (Camel), Delta is Daleth (Door [in a tent]), and so on. Bro Ruff, In another forum I have said to you again that the Phoenician language came from Crete, as a natural evolution. The evidence is there, I'm not going to point it out to you. Whoever wants to find it can. You are welcome when you visit London to visit my home where I have lots of evidence about the merchants/Phoenicians and how they have acquired the language via Crete.I just dont have the time any more to write tons of evidence; this task would be a full time job equivalent. I just hope someone translates these sources into English so that the rest of the world finally learns what has been deliberately kept from them. As fas as ox, camels etc., please consider that the ancient Greeks were concerned with building the Parthenon, constructing mathematical theorems, and discussing the human psyche, rather than living a nomadic tribal life, feeding cattle. As far as your latter comment...I feel good about having a connection with one of the greatest civilizations the human mind has ever encountered. By the way, I find your actions very peculiar. While I was talking about the Light, you turned my post into an arena for a political/ethnological discussion. You have done this before in other fora. What is your motive then?
|
|
ruffashlar
Member
Lodge Milncroft No. 1515 (GLoS), Govanhill Royal Arch Chapter 523 (S.G.R.A.C.S.)
Posts: 2,184
|
Post by ruffashlar on Jan 24, 2005 22:34:52 GMT
Bro Atarnaris,
Though it was not my intention, I clearly have offended you. Think why this might be. The ideas you have, it would seem, are not ones you are willing to examine in a calmly scientific, scholarly manner. You are too close to your subject, and cannot return to objectivity if you do not take a step back from them to consider them rationally.
"In another forum I have said to you again that the Phoenician language came from Crete, as a natural evolution."
There is no evidence for this. The language of Crete, as Michael Ventris demonstrates in his Decipherment of Linear B is a form of proto-Hellenic. The characters are not an alphabet, but a syllabary, and bear more illuminating comparison with specimens recording the language of ancient Malta. Of course, this still leaves Linear A, but they've thrown everything in the way of cryptanalysis at that for decades, including Phoenician (which is the obvious first choice), to no avail.
"The evidence is there, I'm not going to point it out to you. Whoever wants to find it can."
How revealing is that? You can certainly find anything if you set out to find it, no matter what.
"I just hope someone translates these sources into English so that the rest of the world finally learns what has been deliberately kept from them"
By whom?
"As far as ox, camels etc., please consider that the ancient Greeks were concerned with building the Parthenon, constructing mathematical theorems, and discussing the human psyche, rather than living a nomadic tribal life, feeding cattle."
Rather compelling evidence that they didn't invent an alphabet, the letters of which are named after these things, wouldn't you say?
"As far as your latter comment...I feel good about having a connection with one of the greatest civilizations the human mind has ever encountered."
I'm glad you do. Greek civilisation is the best and most beautiful thing which Europe has ever produced. In fact, it is Europe which was produced by Greece: Greek art, philosophy and ideas are the oil, Europe is but the lamp; the preservation of learning is the wick, and the modern world the illumination. Who knows how far this light will travel?
"By the way, I find your actions very peculiar. While I was talking about the Light, you turned my post into an arena for a political/ethnological discussion. You have done this before in other fora. What is your motive then? "
You feel I have cast aspersions upon the honour of your lineage. Let me apologise for having allowed this misapprehension to have arisen. No "political/ ethnological discussion" was intended. Nor indeed have I done so. I was drawing your attention to the possibility that your own perfectly justified pride and patriotism for that brilliant flowering of all arts and sciences we call Hellenic civilisation, may be clouding your perception as regards certain aspects of the ideas you have proposed.
Simply, Greek civilisation does not require the patronage of the Phoenician mercantile fleet to be great. It is already great. Its greatness blots out every other Mediterranean culture in its time and after it. Even the Romans were culturally inferior. The only civilisations which even compare are those of China and India, and Greek influence spread infinitely further.
I have no motive, there is no disharmony lurking. I have spoken thus, argued coolly and evenly, and am willing to discuss further; but if this will cause discord, I am willing to fall silent upon it.
S&F,
|
|
|
Post by atarnaris on Jan 24, 2005 22:41:55 GMT
I will write to you in private and let the thread continue with the subject of Light.
|
|
|
Post by perrier on Jan 24, 2005 23:00:28 GMT
While there may be a long and involved tradition of this ancient prayer in Greek mystical culture, you could make the same case for an English language prayer using the Roman alphabet: [ . Am not sure that this appears as logical as it first seems?
|
|
|
Post by perrier on Jan 24, 2005 23:05:09 GMT
. Rabbinical lore makes even stranger and less likely calls upon the Phoenician (Hebrew) alphabet in the service of textual criticism; ditto the Cabala. So, it's still a valid tool of inquiry and contemplation; just, perhaps, not quite the "hidden tradition" you seem to claim. Don't lose sight of the possibility that, as a Greek, you may unconsciously ascribe grandiloquent fancies to the land of your fathers, when they may have no basis in objective fact. 1st Question: Are you denying that cultures do not have hidden tradition? If so what proof do you have of this or not? 2nd Question: In what way do you claim monopoly on 'fact', while others have mere 'grandiloquent fancies'? History is often flawed (any historian will tell you that), and is never complete.
|
|
|
Post by whistler on Jan 24, 2005 23:06:12 GMT
Bro Ruff, Please stay on the sidelines and let the rest of us follow Artarnis's research In another forum I have said to you again that the Phoenician language came from Crete, I understand that it was the Phoenican's that built Solomons Temple - How does the time line fit with Crete.As fas as ox, camels etc., please consider that the ancient Greeks were concerned with building the Parthenon, constructing mathematical theorems, and discussing the human psyche, rather than living a nomadic tribal life, feeding cattle. which justifies looking very carefully at their legacy As far as your latter comment...I feel good about having a connection with one of the greatest civilizations the human mind has ever encountered. Great please feed us Greek wisdom as you feel moved to do so - just remember some of us struggle with big words ;D
|
|
|
Post by perrier on Jan 24, 2005 23:16:08 GMT
Especially since Greek is an Indo-European language, and the names of the Greek letters come directly out of Phoenician, a Semitic one. While interpretation is always a difficulty where human beings are intent on using 'words', the above statement leaves something almost implied rather than explicitly said. Given that the jury is out about the origins of the Phoenicians what can be absolute in our understanding of their language? I have read (only) that the Greeks adapted the Phoenician "alphabet" to Greek and from about 800 a written record begins to appear. However, given the debate of the Phoenicians themselves, one wonders whether this is evidence of an older language than Greek? "Modern cultural agendas, both personal and national, have been brought to bear. But ultimately, the origins of the Phoenicians are still unknown: where they came from and just when (or if) they arrived, and under what circumstances, are all still energetically disputed." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia
|
|
|
Post by perrier on Jan 24, 2005 23:27:48 GMT
The ideas you have, it would seem, are not ones you are willing to examine in a calmly scientific, scholarly manner. You are too close to your subject, and cannot return to objectivity if you do not take a step back from them to consider them rationally. quote] Hardly a statement that inspires a calm, scientific, scholarly manner. You make blanket statements really that could be interpreted as inflammatory. You need to be less academically pretentious - your sarcasm is showing in the most unseemly condascending and patronising way, that your attempt to intellectualise becomes dismally more like willfulness and self serving on your part. This is not calm, scientific or schlarly to my mind. We can have opinions, and as you can see I have my own.. but we both know surely that opinion isn't worth a hill of beans at the end of the day?
|
|
bod
Member
UGLE - MM (London), MMM RAM(Middx), OSM (London)
Posts: 1,296
|
Post by bod on Jan 25, 2005 8:29:35 GMT
Seems like there is a distinct absence of light on this thread and an awful lot of heat.
Perrier - welcome to the forum, but do you have to be so aggressive in your posts?
|
|
|
Post by whistler on Jan 25, 2005 8:51:15 GMT
Ruff and Perrier, PLEASE don't descend to the level of THAT other Forum, By all means let us debate the subject of Light - but don't start attacking those debating the subject
|
|
|
Post by perrier on Jan 25, 2005 12:01:58 GMT
Seems like there is a distinct absence of light on this thread and an awful lot of heat. Perrier - welcome to the forum, but do you have to be so aggressive in your posts? Thank you for your welcome. My apologies for deviating from the subject of this thread.
|
|
|
Post by perrier on Jan 25, 2005 12:10:15 GMT
By all means let us debate the subject of Light - but don't start attacking those debating the subject You are of course absolutely right....
|
|
|
Post by taylorsman on Jan 25, 2005 12:23:56 GMT
Having crossed swords with Ruff on the "other place" I am used to his wide swings from very scholarly erudition on the one hand to incomprehensible babble on the other, and much of his humour is totally lost on me I have to say. He is a Glasgow Scot from the opposite Tradition to myself and as such is a bit out on a limb both in his adopted affinity, (you don't find many Celtic Supporters in a Glasgow Masonic Lodge), and that into which he was born, (there aren't that many Masons in a Glasgow RC "Chapel"), and I understand still feels some attachment.
So while it is easy to take the spur at his barbs and goads I feel that essentially he is a Seeker after Truth and has very much indeed to give us especially from his in depth knowledge of languages and folklore etc. I don't begin to understand some of his scientific postings however as my Physics really ends with Bro Sir Isaac Newton.
|
|
|
Post by hollandr on Jan 25, 2005 13:00:48 GMT
I recently read 2 quite good books that gave reasonable and different demonstations that the ancient Greek activities were in Britain e.g. the Ionian sea is around Iona.
Both gave reasonable grounds for seeing the Phoenicians as Celtic.
Hence the red of phoenicians is the red hair of the Celts
I have also read that the Roman royalty found their lineage from Britain and sent their off spring there for a decent education.
Cheers
Russell
|
|
ruffashlar
Member
Lodge Milncroft No. 1515 (GLoS), Govanhill Royal Arch Chapter 523 (S.G.R.A.C.S.)
Posts: 2,184
|
Post by ruffashlar on Jan 25, 2005 14:33:54 GMT
Brethren,
You see ironic sneers and sarcastic barbs where none were intended. I certainly cannot see where these are supposed to be. As such you seem to have me at a disadvantage, because I can assure you I am perfectly in earnest.
All I said was that I didn't think Atarnaris' research, interesting as it is, sounded very convincing to me. Why would there be a secret hymn concealed - in Greek - inside the names of the letters when those letters have non-Greek names? - names which have known mnemonic meanings in a language from an entirely different language-group?
Yes, there is debate about who the Phoenicians were, but applying some logic for a moment, if the Greek alphabet still bears the letter-names of the source alphabet which came from the Phoenicians, and those names are known to be in a Semitic language, doesn't it reasonably follow that the Phoenicians themselves were probably Semitic in origin? I use Semitic in the broad, linguistic sense, to cover the entire spectrum of Hebrew, Arabic, Aramaic and so on.
I further posited that Atarnaris himself might be falling too easily into the role of patriot-investigator, like Virgil in his credulous acceptance of the Trojan origin of Rome; or Geoffrey of Monmouth's Arthurian fantasies of prehistoric Britons having conquered Rome. It's one reason I'd not personally investigate the prehistory of Scotland or Ireland too closely: it's too easy to let the Ossianic mists and Celtic twilight go to your head.
Now, let's discuss things reasonably and rationally.
|
|
bod
Member
UGLE - MM (London), MMM RAM(Middx), OSM (London)
Posts: 1,296
|
Post by bod on Jan 25, 2005 14:44:30 GMT
Now, let's discuss things reasonably and rationally C'mon - be real, brother, this is a forum on the interweb - when did calmness and clarity ever come into it?
|
|
ruffashlar
Member
Lodge Milncroft No. 1515 (GLoS), Govanhill Royal Arch Chapter 523 (S.G.R.A.C.S.)
Posts: 2,184
|
Post by ruffashlar on Jan 25, 2005 14:50:35 GMT
Perrier,
"1st Question: Are you denying that cultures do not have hidden tradition? If so what proof do you have of this or not?"
What proof do you have that cultures do? I mean, apart from such trifling matters as documentary evidence, or even intelligent guesswork?
"2nd Question: In what way do you claim monopoly on 'fact', while others have mere 'grandiloquent fancies'? History is often flawed (any historian will tell you that), and is never complete. "
I claim no monopoly; although it appears I may have cornered the market. Where there are gaps in an historical narrative, one is free to manufacture connecting material of a like character to fill in and appear continuous with the visible parts of that narrative. It is like filling the gaps in a partly-fissured wall: before the concealing plaster is reapplied, one must make good the fissures with appropriate material. Things made up without regard to probability are not appropriate. That would better resemble a game of Consequences, where a man's feet and head can be connected with the body of a gorilla.
|
|
staffs
Administrator
Staffs
Posts: 3,295
|
Post by staffs on Jan 25, 2005 16:11:41 GMT
Nice and lively then lads i see ?
|
|
|
Post by whistler on Jan 25, 2005 18:31:42 GMT
Ruff, A special request - you have very interesting posts do remember those like me who have difficulty with Big Words Important point re light - The light is a bit Dim in New Zealand at the moment.. Yesterday was Burns night.... Big problem - OATMEAL - Pure and Proper OATMEAL has vanished from our shops..... Oh poor Haggis
|
|