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Post by whistler on Nov 10, 2004 6:34:35 GMT
Hey Bro, How about some real mental exercise - for those of us who think masonry began before 1700. We can track our masonry back to Egypt , and other ancient civilizations, but where do we go from there. Maybe Graham Hankock and Robert Bauval can give us a clue. Their conclusions about the Sphinx how it was buit - and remember it took a while to build - and those other pyramids, How Sphinx (the Lion), lined up so exactly with the stars of Leo, at the equinox. at only one time in many many years Simple laws of Mathmatical Probability make it unlikely we are the only intelligence in the Cosmos - Could our Hidden Mysteries come from beyond Planet earth. If they didn't how do we explain the origins, where they a special basket of goodies from G .A.O.T.U. did some fellow just dream the up or what
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Post by adder on Nov 10, 2004 7:06:28 GMT
Of course there are ancient origins,but IMO they come down to us as lines of thought,transmissions of ideas going back to when man(generic sense)first began to speculate.
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Post by whistler on Nov 10, 2004 7:13:31 GMT
Of course there are ancient origins,but IMO they come down to us as lines of thought,transmissions of ideas going back to when man(generic sense)first began to speculate. Yes but where are you going to start those lines of Transmissions
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Post by adder on Nov 10, 2004 7:50:55 GMT
Yes but where are you going to start those lines of Transmissions I'm not going to start 'em pal.Neither am I going to invent the wheel.
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Post by Stash on Nov 10, 2004 7:59:03 GMT
For me, tracing the origins of masonry, and beyond (butnot so much beyond yet, as the former is still occupying alot of time) is one of my favorite paths to peruse, especially when choosing books. I don't have time to elaborate alot right now, cause I have an exam at noon, and it's 4am and i've been playing halo2 all day and night...but tomorrow sometime i will hopefully be able to make it back to make a post
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staffs
Administrator
Staffs
Posts: 3,295
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Post by staffs on Nov 10, 2004 16:07:34 GMT
good thread whistler and i can see where you are coming from
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Post by Stash on Nov 10, 2004 16:41:44 GMT
IMO, this is the noe topic above others that many otherwise open-minded people REFUSE to have an open mind to. You've got your 1717 people, and your "formation of the first grand lodge people" who just CANT accept that there MIGHT be something earlier!!
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Post by Seeker on Nov 10, 2004 17:47:36 GMT
Whistler, An interesting concept, I have heard about Orion in context of the arrival of thought, another suggestion involves Venus as a transit for that intellegence Do you know anything about that.
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ruffashlar
Member
Lodge Milncroft No. 1515 (GLoS), Govanhill Royal Arch Chapter 523 (S.G.R.A.C.S.)
Posts: 2,184
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Post by ruffashlar on Nov 11, 2004 5:45:47 GMT
We can track our masonry back to Egypt
No, we can't. There were definitely stonemasons back then, they had some kind of builder's bothy which might be called a lodge, and knowing the protectionist practices of craft groups through history as we do, they most probably excluded unskilled labourers and non-lodge trained craftsmen from the profession.
But that is not at all the same thing as being able to trace the history of the movement back to Egypt, or indeed to anywhere further back in time than the Medioeval period in Europe. Things certainly go back to the late-Medioeval in Scotland, but that's the whole story as far as the British Isles are concerned.
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Post by whistler on Nov 11, 2004 8:21:35 GMT
Ruff. The hidden wisdom in masonry stretches back beyond Egypt to Mu, and Atlantis. and beyond. The esoteric strands are there for anybody who is ready to see. Those strands are not hidden behind complicated words.
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Post by adder on Nov 11, 2004 8:49:49 GMT
To me this is interesting but idle speculation.The acid test is does it work here,now,today? Can I put it to use to make myself a better person? If not then it is merely a curio,an interesting diversion.Nothing wrong with that,but I have to be in the right frame of mind.
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Post by whistler on Nov 11, 2004 9:24:32 GMT
To me this is interesting but idle speculation.The acid test is does it work here,now,today? Can I put it to use to make myself a better person? If not then it is merely a curio,an interesting diversion.Nothing wrong with that,but I have to be in the right frame of mind. If you are refering to being able to "see" yes you can put it into use to make yourself a better person, but to be able to "See" is just part of a package of an area of Knowledge, some people can see with out the knowledge and get into a bit of a pickle
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Post by adder on Nov 11, 2004 10:34:23 GMT
If you are refering to being able to "see" yes you can put it into use to make yourself a better person, but to be able to "See" is just part of a package of an area of Knowledge, some people can see with out the knowledge and get into a bit of a pickle To see without kowledge is the lot of humanity.That's what the quest is all about in one sense.
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ruffashlar
Member
Lodge Milncroft No. 1515 (GLoS), Govanhill Royal Arch Chapter 523 (S.G.R.A.C.S.)
Posts: 2,184
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Post by ruffashlar on Nov 12, 2004 1:43:50 GMT
Mu and Atlantis are fanciful fabrications.
Worse, they are an attempt to tell indigenous tribes of the world that they couldn't possibly have come up with pyramids and writing systems by themselves; there must have been some other wellspring of world culture, some mid-Atlantic imperial island nation which, strangely, no-one has ever discovered on the seabed, but which must have existed.
Otherwise, swarthy naked savages must have invented civilisation before the Europeans, which is obviously ridiculous.
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Post by Hubert (N. Z.) on Nov 12, 2004 2:28:44 GMT
Latest suggestions are that the mythical Atlantic continent is, due to continental drift & shifting poles, where The Antartic continent is now situated. When I redicover the book I'll post the details. This was also indicated on literature regarding Old Sea Maps. Unfortunally we will have to wait for the ice to melt or further continental movement to prove the piont as it is presently buried under tons of antartic ice!
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Post by Seeker on Nov 12, 2004 5:12:42 GMT
Mu and Atlantis are fanciful fabrications. Worse, they are an attempt to tell indigenous tribes of the world that they couldn't possibly have come up with pyramids and writing systems by themselves; there must have been some other wellspring of world culture, some mid-Atlantic imperial island nation which, strangely, no-one has ever discovered on the seabed, but which must have existed. Otherwise, swarthy naked savages must have invented civilisation before the Europeans, which is obviously ridiculous. Ruff . IMO your understanding of indigenous tribes is limited. No tribe is truly indigenous we all come from somewhere, yes some even from Mu or Atlantis, Because a tribe lives in grass huts or Sky Scrapers it is presumptious to think that their ancestors did.
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Post by Stash on Nov 23, 2004 7:48:29 GMT
Here is a supposition i have NEVER run across before, nor do I hold any truth in it, I am merely posting it because it fits the topic, and it is always good to be aware of all opinions.
"The 'Encyclopedia Americana' art, Masonry, derives the Order from the Collegia Artificium of the Romans; and says it's members were introduced into this country by the knigs Alfred and Athelstan, to build castles and churches. They then united, under written constitutions of the Roman and Greek colleges, and the provisions of the civil law. Their religious tenets being often objects of suspicion to the orthodox catholics, and often differing among themselves, they were n9ot allowed to obtrude in their meetings, and of course they were kept secret."
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Post by ingo on Nov 23, 2004 8:11:01 GMT
I agree first with Ruff and think we can trace back the roots to the Middle Ages. The papers of the roman catholic church (see a book of the jesuits from 1717!!) concerning its councils give informations about mysterious groups of people, clerics, noblemen and rich citizens who meet in castles and other places, wearing aprons(!) and using symbols like square and compass... These people are rich, noble or clerics - but NO stonemasons. Please also consider the masonic symbols which were found on templar graves in Palestine and France. I guess, we can find several traces in the Orient as well, like the Buliding masters in the region of the to-day Iraq which used the symbol of King Solomon and its temple, and united christians, jews and muslims in a universal bortherhood! I also think that Mu and Atlantis are fare away. We do not know many facts about these cultures - even not if they ever existed. But we can definitly say that masonry existed BEFORE 1717.
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Post by taylorsman on Nov 23, 2004 9:25:46 GMT
As you know I firmly believe that Freemasonry came down to us via the Knights Templar and from what arcane knowledge they gained both when an early group of Knights excavated beneath the ruins of the Temple and over the years. Certainly, it did NOT start in 1717 as it was already well established in Scotland before then even if the GL of Scotland was not instituted until 1736.
As to where the Knowledge that the KT's discovered came from originally, that is a matter for further debate. I favour the Egyptian derivation but there are several alternatives to that.
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Post by Stash on Nov 28, 2004 21:47:15 GMT
Just noting that I started a poll based on masonic origins, which can be found in the polls forum.
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