Agent J
Member
On a Mission from God...
Posts: 127
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Post by Agent J on Jan 7, 2005 8:31:55 GMT
I've just finished reading "The Rosicrucian Enlightenment" by Frances Yates. To cut a long story short, Rosicrucianism (whatever that may have been) was particularly interested in attaching itself to the fortunes of Frederick, Elector Palatine, and his wife Elizabeth, daughter of James I, supporting them in their short-lived reign as King and Queen of Bohemia. Whilst making her case that to some extent, there is a Rosicrucian element in Freemasonry, she throws up the statement that after Frederick's death, Rosicrucianism continued to support Elizabeth during her years in exile at the Hague...and therefore considered themselves to be the "Sons of the Widow"...answers on a postcard please...
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Post by hollandr on Jan 8, 2005 7:02:19 GMT
No one seems to want to reply to this so here is my rather small contribution.
The Rosicrucians as I recall referred to the Invisible College - overtly a reference to their membership not being public knowledge. If that were the reason, perhaps they should have referred to themselves as the Secret College.
I suspect their naming is a pun - there may be more to the Rosicrucians than meets the eye. They were the pre-eminent scientists, alchemists and philosophers of the time. Is that because they recruited only those or is that because the Rosicrucians had access to secret teachings - perhaps from invisible teachers?
For example, only 300 years before, gothic cathedrals arrived with the best and highest built first - a fully developed technology arrived and then was slowly lost.
Was more technology forthcoming from that hidden source?
As to being sons of the widow, I think we have to distinguish between being Masons and being bloodline descendents of the Widow Isis. In the latter case there might well be technology passed down as we are told that the 7 liberal arts and sciences come from the star at the top of the stairs/ladder on the EA TB and that is Sirius - the star from which Isis is supposed to have come.
So I suspect that whatever political goings on the Rosicrucians were involved in were the least of their interests but possibly the best known
Cheers
Russell
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staffs
Administrator
Staffs
Posts: 3,295
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Post by staffs on Jan 8, 2005 7:22:02 GMT
Good Post Russell and you have given me my daily advancement in masonic knowledge .Thank you.
I learn so much here .
So different from the learning in lodge and things that e are not told.
OR maybe those people dont know themselves ?/
oR are not so esoterical minded ?
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Post by taylorsman on Jan 11, 2005 9:37:35 GMT
"So different from the learning in lodge and things that we are not told.
OR maybe those people dont know themselves ?
OR are not so esoterical minded ? "
Exactly Lee! You have hit the nail on the head. I used to attend a Lodge NOT in Sussex were the DC, a bit of a Sargent Major of a man, didn't know that the Son of a Freemason was called a Lewis!!!!!!!!!! (and he had Provincial Honours too!)
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Post by sid on Jun 11, 2005 2:36:57 GMT
I do believe that there is an 'inner' Order R+C, and the House or Collage 'Sancti Spiritus' (S.S.) of the Order is mentioned many times. As an example see: Theophilus Schweighart's drawing dated 1618 'Speculum Sophicum Rhodo-Stauroticum'. In the drawing of the 'Citadel of Magnesia' of Heinrich Khunrath, the Holy of Holies is also shown within the inner walls that are protected by the moat of water surrounding it. I would also surmise that it is also protected by the dragon that is at the top of the mountain, as well.
Have you read the "Chemical Wedding of Christian Rosenkreuz. *Anno 1459"? If so you will remember that on the first day Christian Rosenkreuz receives an invitation to attend the wedding, which has the famous 'Monas' symbol of John Dee, "engraved upon a small seal", with the words "IN HOC SIGNO VINCES" = In this sign you will be victorious.
If you look closely at the drawing of the 'Citadel of Magnesia' you will find the same symbol of 'invitation' above the drawbridge that is also encircled by 2 dragons. This would suggest that one would receive an Invitation to enter the Fraternity of the Rose Cross.
*Anno 1459: Unfortunately, the 'year' of the wedding is often forgotten in the title of the English versions. The year 1459 and the (Monas) symbol of "Invitation" on the 'First Day' is the axis of the Brotherhood, both past, present, and future, and is the 'Quinta Essentia' of the whole world. It is in fact 'ever present' as is the 'pocess' of development and the unfoldment of the student 'upon the path'. Meaning that this involves a 'spiritual' process.
If you use the Monas symbol as an axis with the year Anno 1459 at its base, and subtract 145 years, you will have the year 1314, which is when the Order of the Temple was closed and hidden. Add 145 years to the year of the wedding and you have the year 1604, which is when the Vault of Christian Rosenkreuz was 'discovered' and 'opened' in Germany.
I do not have the complete picture or the understanding regarding the true cycles of the 'inner' Order, but believe they involve the calculations within a circle of 360° degrees, and the movement of the triangle within the circle (like a clock) which also has its marks upon it.
The above mentioned 'cycle' with the Monas as its axis Anno 1459 also involves the '37 causes' and the creation of the world "Fiat" with the birth of the first Adam 3761 B.C. and the 'end of the world' "Pereat" in Anno 6679. This is equal to the 'triangulation' of the the number 144 i.e., 144°°° = 10440 years.
To bring this down to earth, as an analogy, at Stonehenge through out the month of the winter solstice in November the sun 'chases' the moon, and if one looks directly through the main gate/entrance you will see that when they both meet, the moon is above the sun and within the two 'windows'. This reminded me of the Monas of John Dee.
If you take a closer look at the 'Citadel of Magnesia(e)' you will notice that after you have crossed the draw bridge you will also see the Monas above the doorway and encircled by the double dragon.
(Unfortunately, the examples on the internet are not clear enough because the middle of the drawing is the middle of the fortress so both Khunrath at the entrance with his dog bunch of roses + heart, as well as the other dragons, are not clear. Another dragon is in the water at the entrance to the cave of the mountain. The other dragon is on the top of the mountain.
Also in the booklet called '*Liber 777' (AMORC) that is for both members and non-members, Imperator H. Spencer Lewis and others compiled a system of spiritual/cosmic attunement which included all 'students upon the path' regardless of affiliation. (*the original version and not the watered down version).
Unfortunately, the German version is for members only.
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ruffashlar
Member
Lodge Milncroft No. 1515 (GLoS), Govanhill Royal Arch Chapter 523 (S.G.R.A.C.S.)
Posts: 2,184
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Post by ruffashlar on Jun 12, 2005 2:14:48 GMT
More like delay advancement in masonic knowledge
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Post by taylorsman on Jun 12, 2005 9:03:37 GMT
Sid, that is of great interest indeeed! I will have to obtain a copy of the picture you describe. Now to me thisis far more an Advance in Masonic Knowledge than learning something parrot fashion from a Ritual Book, especially when some who do so and do so well haven't the slightest clue what they are saying , what the words mean, and sadly many couldn't care less!
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Post by sid on Jun 15, 2005 14:51:52 GMT
Greetings taylorsman, There is plenty more where that came from, but I didn't want to over do it with my ramblings unless there is an interest. Some of my posts are at Google groups "alt.amorc" which I've been trying to keep alive between all the spam that gets posted on there Sid, that is of great interest indeeed! I will have to obtain a copy of the picture you describe. Now to me this is far more an Advance in Masonic Knowledge than learning something parrot fashion from a Ritual Book, especially when some who do so and do so well haven't the slightest clue what they are saying , what the words mean, and sadly many couldn't care less! First things first, regarding the learning of things off by heart, or parrot fashion. You are building a foundation upon which to build, and personally, I believe that once the 3 floors have been built, you will then automaticly receive some kind of inner guiedance towards other sources of information, in fact I believe that the inner guiedance is a continual process for all 'students upon the path', regardless of one's affiliation.
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Post by sid on Jun 15, 2005 15:40:50 GMT
Greetings, Most of the material is exoteric i.e., numbers and dates etc., that are the basis of the so called Rosicrucian Manifestos etc., are all there. As a layman on the subject, I look upon the Naometria as a work of instruction. The mention of the 4 animals and their number in this case as used by by Studion is only one example that there is more to these things that require further attention and study. The fact that 3 of the animals are mentioned on the 5th Day of the Chemical Wedding is not esoteric either, and I just thought that the link with the Naometria would be of some interest to the members of the forum. To cement the above: If you read the text of the 5th Day of the wedding of Christian Rosenkreuz you will notice that the 3 Evangelical animals are mentioned. www.crcsite.org/wedding1.htm"...This Sepulcher was triangular, and had in the middle of it a Kettle of polished Copper, the rest was of pure Gold and precious Stones; In the Kettle stood an Angel, who held in his Arms an unknown Tree, from which it continually dropped Fruit into the Kettle; and as oft as the Fruit fell into the Kettle, it turned into Water too, and ran out from thence into three small Golden Kettles standing by. This little Altar was supported by these three Animals, an Eagle, and Ox and a Lyon, which stood on an exceeding costly Base. I asked my Page what this might signify; "Here," said he, "lies Buried Lady Venus, that Beauty which hath undone many a great Man, both in Fourtune, Honour, Blessing and Prosperity."... " Since writing this I have discovered that the foundation of Studion's temple not only contains the number 156 but also the number(s) triangulated that total the year of the birth of Christian Rosenkreuz i.e., 1378. You will also notice that the Angel is the first to be mentioned above. The Angel is also the first of the foundation stones and wall in Studion's drawing, (start, seed, birth?). Interestingly, these 4 animals also form a greater cross in Astronomy and *Astrology. As an example, Studion placed the number 156 on his picture which would be exoteric, his reasons and what he wishes to impart to the reader and viewer are very probably esoteric. Esoteric just means that it is required that one look deeper within to receive the secrets. He gave the 4 animals the following numbers: 1.) Man/Angel = 12 (1 x 12 = 12 ) 2.) Ox/Bull = 24 (2 x 12 = 24) 3.) Eagle = 48 (4 x 12 = 48) 4.) Lion = 72 (6 y 12 = 72) the numbers 1+2+4+6 = 13 the numbers 12 + 24 + 48 + 72 = 156 The Monas Hieroglyph that is on the invitation to the Wedding can also be found on one of Khunrath's plates called the "Alchemical Fortress" which also has 7 sides to it that surrounds the mountain. The fortress is surrounded by a moat that is full of water. There is also another wall surrounding the other side of the moat which has a large gate which has 2 slim pyramid like pillars with the Sun and the Moon on top of them with an altar and a guardian behind it. The draw bridge behind the guardian which is the gate to the inner fortress, above which can be seen the Monas Hieroglyph that is protected by the 'double' Ouroboros. The final outer wall has 20 walled 'rooms' that are each linked to each other. The smallest and only entrance through the wall and to the guardian is the 11th within the circle i.e., the 21st depending how they are counted. The only entrance to the guardian is via a long line of steps like Jacob's ladder, at the end of which is a large heart with roses(?) growing out of it. Khunrath (?) is at the bottom of the stairs with his dog. It remains that the number 156 is the key to many things. 156 x 4 = 624 divided by 24 = 26 = JHVH and the words at the end of the Fama. (count the letters). JHVH = 10 + 5 + 6 + 5 =26. The triangulation of these numbers give us 55 + 15 + 21 + 15 = 106 which is the 'age' of CRC. 12 x 26 = 312 divided by 24 = 13. The circle is symbolized by the number 9 (9 x 12 = 108), i.e., the circle when squared/perfected contains the 12 with the 13th in its centre. Christ has been placed within the center of the circle, as has Christian Rosenkreuz. Venus says (It is said) that she will give birth to a King. Venus = Fortuna? It is believed that Fortuna was replaced by the figure of King Arthur and later by the figure of Christ upon the round table at Winchester. The double red rose is in its centre. If you are reading the Chymical Wedding and you see the Eagle, the Ox and the Lion, then would it not be possible that you the reader/initiate would also be the 4th figure, i.e., Man/Homo/Angel? Are we not witnessing what Christian Rosenkreuz himself experienced? This is why I believe that the assimilation of these texts is so important. The Rose of Jericho at 4 of its gates also contains the same 3 numbers as those from the vault in the Fama i.e., 5,8, and 7 = 20. 4 x 20 = 80 = Pe,Pi,P,II, etc. The numbers 5 and 8 x 4 are 20 and 32 = 52, and 3 x 52 return us back to the number 156. Now we have the 4 and the 3 = 7. Is it not possible that the number 7 represents a special condition within nature, man that can be experienced through the perfected ritual? In the Fama Fraternitatis the Vault that was discovered in 1604 in which the grave of Christian Rosenkreuz was found, also has 7 sides with each wall being 5 shoes wide & 8 shoes high i.e., each wall is of the number 26. If you draw the building you will get either 182 divided by 7 = 26, or when fixed 126. 126 is 1/10th of the important number/year 1260. Each wall also has 10 compartments in it. These are the shared results of some combined research freely given. Best I can do. Regards, Sid P.S. Perhaps there is someone on the forum who has studied the Monas of John Dee, who can enlighten us regarding the importance of the number 156? John Dee uses a combination of squares i.e., 12 x 13 = 156. *Astrology was originally called "Earth Astrology" i.e., when the Earth, and things of the Earth, were measured with an instrument called a Jackob's Staff or rod, and using the stars. Another interesting point: Studion's building & his 'clock of God' contains 'hours' each of which are 90, and each brick is of that number. How long did it take Solomon to build his Temple? Was it not 90 months? Is the widow perhaps VENUS or does she have many names?
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sid
Member
Hi everyone. Was on here a long time ago. Just thought I'd drop by to see how things are.
Posts: 12
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Post by sid on Jun 21, 2015 22:44:33 GMT
I do believe that there is an 'inner' Order R+C, and the House or Collage 'Sancti Spiritus' (S.S.) of the Order is mentioned many times. As an example see: Theophilus Schweighart's drawing dated 1618 'Speculum Sophicum Rhodo-Stauroticum'. In the drawing of the 'Citadel of Magnesia' of Heinrich Khunrath, the Holy of Holies is also shown within the inner walls that are protected by the moat of water surrounding it. I would also surmise that it is also protected by the dragon that is at the top of the mountain, as well. Have you read the "Chemical Wedding of Christian Rosenkreuz. *Anno 1459"? If so you will remember that on the first day Christian Rosenkreuz receives an invitation to attend the wedding, which has the famous 'Monas' symbol of John Dee, "engraved upon a small seal", with the words "IN HOC SIGNO VINCES" = In this sign you will be victorious. If you look closely at the drawing of the 'Citadel of Magnesia' you will find the same symbol of 'invitation' above the drawbridge that is also encircled by 2 dragons. This would suggest that one would receive an Invitation to enter the Fraternity of the Rose Cross. *Anno 1459: Unfortunately, the 'year' of the wedding is often forgotten in the title of the English versions. The year 1459 and the (Monas) symbol of "Invitation" on the 'First Day' is the axis of the Brotherhood, both past, present, and future, and is the 'Quinta Essentia' of the whole world. It is in fact 'ever present' as is the 'pocess' of development and the unfoldment of the student 'upon the path'. Meaning that this involves a 'spiritual' process. If you use the Monas symbol as an axis with the year Anno 1459 at its base, and subtract 145 years, you will have the year 1314, which is when the Order of the Temple was closed and hidden. Add 145 years to the year of the wedding and you have the year 1604, which is when the Vault of Christian Rosenkreuz was 'discovered' and 'opened' in Germany. I do not have the complete picture or the understanding regarding the true cycles of the 'inner' Order, but believe they involve the calculations within a circle of 360° degrees, and the movement of the triangle within the circle (like a clock) which also has its marks upon it. The above mentioned 'cycle' with the Monas as its axis Anno 1459 also involves the '37 causes' and the creation of the world "Fiat" with the birth of the first Adam 3761 B.C. and the 'end of the world' "Pereat" in Anno 6679. This is equal to the 'triangulation' of the the number 144 i.e., 144°°° = 10440 years. To bring this down to earth, as an analogy, at Stonehenge through out the month of the winter solstice in November the sun 'chases' the moon, and if one looks directly through the main gate/entrance you will see that when they both meet, the moon is above the sun and within the two 'windows'. This reminded me of the Monas of John Dee. If you take a closer look at the 'Citadel of Magnesia(e)' you will notice that after you have crossed the draw bridge you will also see the Monas above the doorway and encircled by the double dragon. (Unfortunately, the examples on the internet are not clear enough because the middle of the drawing is the middle of the fortress so both Khunrath at the entrance with his dog bunch of roses + heart, as well as the other dragons, are not clear. Another dragon is in the water at the entrance to the cave of the mountain. The other dragon is on the top of the mountain. Also in the booklet called '*Liber 777' (AMORC) that is for both members and non-members, Imperator H. Spencer Lewis and others compiled a system of spiritual/cosmic attunement which included all 'students upon the path' regardless of affiliation. (*the original version and not the watered down version). Unfortunately, the German version is for members only.
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sid
Member
Hi everyone. Was on here a long time ago. Just thought I'd drop by to see how things are.
Posts: 12
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Post by sid on Jun 21, 2015 22:46:31 GMT
I do believe that there is an 'inner' Order R+C, and the House or Collage 'Sancti Spiritus' (S.S.) of the Order is mentioned many times. As an example see: Theophilus Schweighart's drawing dated 1618 'Speculum Sophicum Rhodo-Stauroticum'. In the drawing of the 'Citadel of Magnesia' of Heinrich Khunrath, the Holy of Holies is also shown within the inner walls that are protected by the moat of water surrounding it. I would also surmise that it is also protected by the dragon that is at the top of the mountain, as well. Have you read the "Chemical Wedding of Christian Rosenkreuz. *Anno 1459"? If so you will remember that on the first day Christian Rosenkreuz receives an invitation to attend the wedding, which has the famous 'Monas' symbol of John Dee, "engraved upon a small seal", with the words "IN HOC SIGNO VINCES" = In this sign you will be victorious. If you look closely at the drawing of the 'Citadel of Magnesia' you will find the same symbol of 'invitation' above the drawbridge that is also encircled by 2 dragons. This would suggest that one would receive an Invitation to enter the Fraternity of the Rose Cross. *Anno 1459: Unfortunately, the 'year' of the wedding is often forgotten in the title of the English versions. The year 1459 and the (Monas) symbol of "Invitation" on the 'First Day' is the axis of the Brotherhood, both past, present, and future, and is the 'Quinta Essentia' of the whole world. It is in fact 'ever present' as is the 'pocess' of development and the unfoldment of the student 'upon the path'. Meaning that this involves a 'spiritual' process. If you use the Monas symbol as an axis with the year Anno 1459 at its base, and subtract 145 years, you will have the year 1314, which is when the Order of the Temple was closed and hidden. Add 145 years to the year of the wedding and you have the year 1604, which is when the Vault of Christian Rosenkreuz was 'discovered' and 'opened' in Germany. I do not have the complete picture or the understanding regarding the true cycles of the 'inner' Order, but believe they involve the calculations within a circle of 360° degrees, and the movement of the triangle within the circle (like a clock) which also has its marks upon it. The above mentioned 'cycle' with the Monas as its axis Anno 1459 also involves the '37 causes' and the creation of the world "Fiat" with the birth of the first Adam 3761 B.C. and the 'end of the world' "Pereat" in Anno 6679. This is equal to the 'triangulation' of the the number 144 i.e., 144°°° = 10440 years. To bring this down to earth, as an analogy, at Stonehenge through out the month of the winter solstice in November the sun 'chases' the moon, and if one looks directly through the main gate/entrance you will see that when they both meet, the moon is above the sun and within the two 'windows'. This reminded me of the Monas of John Dee. If you take a closer look at the 'Citadel of Magnesia(e)' you will notice that after you have crossed the draw bridge you will also see the Monas above the doorway and encircled by the double dragon. (Unfortunately, the examples on the internet are not clear enough because the middle of the drawing is the middle of the fortress so both Khunrath at the entrance with his dog bunch of roses + heart, as well as the other dragons, are not clear. Another dragon is in the water at the entrance to the cave of the mountain. The other dragon is on the top of the mountain. Also in the booklet called '*Liber 777' (AMORC) that is for both members and non-members, Imperator H. Spencer Lewis and others compiled a system of spiritual/cosmic attunement which included all 'students upon the path' regardless of affiliation. (*the original version and not the watered down version). Unfortunately, the German version is for members only.
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sid
Member
Hi everyone. Was on here a long time ago. Just thought I'd drop by to see how things are.
Posts: 12
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Post by sid on Jun 21, 2015 22:49:48 GMT
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Post by maat on Jul 28, 2015 2:03:34 GMT
Sid!! I remember you. And like yourself, I have not been on this site for a very long time either. I am on the run now, but when things slow down a bit (next week hopefully) I will return to this thread and have a real good read. I always enjoyed your posts. Catch up with you soon. Maat.
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Post by billmcelligott on Jul 28, 2015 16:16:00 GMT
Hi maat nice to see your name here again
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Post by kymason on Sept 4, 2015 19:51:13 GMT
The 18th degree of the A.A.S.R. Knight Rose Croix was a rosicrucian degree.
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Post by peter2 on Sept 5, 2015 6:34:04 GMT
The 18th degree of the A.A.S.R. Knight Rose Croix was a rosicrucian degree. And if we knew whence the Rosicrucians came then the 18th degree would be from there.
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Post by boreades on Nov 19, 2015 22:47:21 GMT
Reading a mention of the "Invisible College" reminds me of the very good book of the same name by Robert Lomas. Although Robert Lomas does an excellent job of making some darkness visible (re the Royal Society and its very strong Masonic connections), it's curious that he makes very little mention of Rose Croix, even though Elias Ashmole is mentioned fairly frequently.
For the Rosicrucian connections to the (offically) first Freemasons (via Elias Ashmole) can I recommend "The Golden Builders" by Tobias Churton?
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pan0ptic
Member
Don't follow me...Follow the light or else.
Posts: 33
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Post by pan0ptic on Nov 20, 2015 1:54:58 GMT
I remember the Rose Croix days on yahoo groups.. maybe 10 years ago... fascinating stuff
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Post by boreades on Nov 28, 2015 15:49:29 GMT
Here are a couple of key connections: 1) There are said to be << resemblance between Bacon's "New Atlantis" and the German Rosicrucian Johann Valentin Andreae's "Description of the Republic of Christianopolis (1619)">> 2) In New Atlantis, Bacon has a character describing "Salomon's House" by King Solamona: "Ye shall understand (my dear friends) that amongst the excellent acts of that king, one above all hath the pre-eminence. It was the erection and institution of an Order or Society, which we call Salomon's House; the noblest foundation (as we think) that ever was upon the earth; and the lanthorn of this kingdom. It is dedicated to the study of the works and creatures of God. Some think it beareth the founder's name a little corrupted, as if it should be Solamona's House. But the records write it as it is spoken. So as I take it to be denominate of the king of the Hebrews, which is famous with you, and no stranger to us." Building Solomon's House should be familiar to all brethren www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/building.html
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Post by peter2 on Nov 28, 2015 20:37:49 GMT
There is also the connection to King James 1st of England: The KJV is the first time a rose appears in the Old Testament.
This then allowed the Rosicrucians to masquerade as Christian.
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