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Post by whistler on Jan 18, 2005 9:19:50 GMT
Quote Mrs Cooper-Oakley- From the death of Manes A.D. 276 there was a fusion with some of the leading Gnostic Sects, and thence do we derive the intermingling of two of the richest streams of Oriental Wisdom: the one, directly through Persia from India; the other traversing that marvellous Egyptain period, enriched by the wisdom of the great Hermetic teachers, flowed into Syria and Arabia, into Europe, through Northern Africa, finding a home in Spain, where it took deep root. From this stock spang into full flower the richness of speech and song for which the Trioubadours will live for ever, Manichaeans who sang and chanted the Esoteric Wisdom they dared not speak. Next we see them dispersed in sects, taking local names- separated in name only , but using the same secret language, having the same signs. Thus everywhere they journeyed, no matter by what name, they were called., each knew the other as a "widow's son," bound together on a Mystic Quest, Knitted by virtue of a secret science into one community, and their heaven was the wisdom and peace of those who sought the higher life---, Could we find a Masonic thread here?
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Post by taylorsman on Jan 18, 2005 9:29:03 GMT
I'm sure we could Whistler as the Old Wisdom was present in the Manicheans, and other such sects persecuted by the church in those days and I have always felt that part of the excuses used by Pope Clement and Philip the Fair to abolish the Templars and seize their property was that they too had access to and belief in that Knowledge. As I also firmly believe that Freemasonry is decended from the Templars then I would not be surprised to find some common ground.
An interesting topic Bro Whistler, keep it coming.
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Post by bevan on Jan 18, 2005 11:42:05 GMT
Whistler, methinks you would enjoy a visit to Cordoba in Spain. Cordoba was a bright spark in dark ages Europe and much gnostic Cathar wisdom survived to this day. Although I doubt you'll still see Troubadours praising the Black Madonna.
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Post by whistler on Jan 18, 2005 18:42:29 GMT
Whistler, methinks you would enjoy a visit to Cordoba in Spain. Cordoba was a bright spark in dark ages Europe and much gnostic Cathar wisdom survived to this day. Although I doubt you'll still see Troubadours praising the Black Madonna. Yes I would like to revist Cordoba, As a typical Kiwi on my Big OE, I went to Cordoba, and many places that with the knowledge I have now I would like to go back to and study a bit - but being young it was a time of Red wine, and Red blooded Birds, the nearest I got to black Madonna's, was seeing them in Bikinis on the Beaches in the South of Spain. When I saw the reference to the Troubadours, I thought of Leo's and his gypsy family I understand their roots take them through Northern Europe, I wonder if you follow them back would you find some connection
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Post by bevan on Jan 18, 2005 22:44:24 GMT
I know what you mean. Also, I reckon that all things become connected if you follow them far back enough...
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Post by hollandr on Jan 19, 2005 9:50:05 GMT
As we know Masonry (at least blue lodge) derives from Egypt and Egypt sprang into splendid culture and technology out of nowhere according to archeological history perhaps 6000 years ago. And yet the Egyptian history of Egypt extends back perhaps 100 times that period.
This requires us to consider whether Masonry developed there or sprang with the new culture from some previous source.
That previous source is generally labelled Atlantis for want of a better name.
What follows is approximately correct but not necessarily in detail.
There were various outmigrations from the doomed Atlantis - often to pre-existing colonies - Sumer is an obvious example. (And Atlantis had deep connections with alien cultures and technologies)
The streams of wisdom referred to by Cooper-Oakley can reasonably be regarded as emanating from the one source - Atlantis.
One important migration from Atlantis settled in northern Scotland around the Moray Firth (colony substantially underground) and progressively spread down through Europe and the Near East as far as India.
This migration (over a period of time) included the Atlantean royal heir who appears in legend as Arthur. That migration also brought the temple mysteries related to law and government to Britain - forming a basis for Britain's leadership in many aspects of governance.
Coming along later we can easily mistake the wisdom as coming from where it best survived - the distant reaches of the early outflows.
So I would propose that the term "son of the Widow" (Isis) is actually Atlantean not Egytian in origin and that Cooper-Oakley actually has the flow backwards.
Cheers
Russell
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Post by a on Jan 19, 2005 10:07:06 GMT
As we know Masonry (at least blue lodge) derives from Egypt Oh Russell, the grief that I have taken elsewhere from your brothers for suggesting such a thing. I cannot comment on Atlantis, but Egypt well that is a different matter. And this is one cycle of life that is returning, here and now. Balance, Maat, Harmony, will hopefully be re-established before Mother Nature does it all for us.
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Post by taylorsman on Jan 19, 2005 12:36:54 GMT
Don't worry, you wont get any grief for voicing such ideas in THIS Forum and if anyone gets too heavy about it the Mods will step in, I think Kizzy the Cat is quite good with her claws!
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Post by whistler on Jan 20, 2005 0:28:04 GMT
and on Topic, Leo have you followed your family tree, can you trace it to many countries - were they tightly Gypsy in a family/ group sense - could any of them have been troubadours?
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Post by leonardo on Jan 20, 2005 11:11:45 GMT
and on Topic, Leo have you followed your family tree, can you trace it to many countries - were they tightly Gypsy in a family/ group sense - could any of them have been troubadours? It's possible of course but as far as I can tell the answer is no. One of the reasons that some "took to the road" way back was they had little choice - the potato famine a case in point. But I read a book awhile back that states Travellers were in Ireland as far back as the 1200s. Maybe these, if this is the case, were able to trace their origins further back. I'm not sure how far back my own connections go. I hope to do some proper research in this. Sorry not to be more helpful.
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Post by whistler on Jan 21, 2005 1:33:20 GMT
Leo, I thought I picked up that you had Gypsy connections. Are Travellers as you discribed different from Gypsy folk.
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Post by leonardo on Jan 21, 2005 8:36:58 GMT
Leo, I thought I picked up that you had Gypsy connections. Are Travellers as you discribed different from Gypsy folk. Gypsy is usually used in a generic sense. Back here Travellers do more or less what British gipsies do and vice versa. The real differerence is "real" gypsies claim ancestry right back, in some cases, to India and Egypt. Bye the way, some believe the word Gypsy came from the word Egypt.
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Post by hollandr on Jan 21, 2005 10:19:55 GMT
A couple of years ago I read a new book on the origins of gypsies.
THis fellow was fascinated by them from his boyhood. He searched through India (gypsies are not Egyptian in origin) looking for villages and areas with the key characteristics that he considered were common to gypsies.
He could find all the characteristics but never in the same group and the different groups refused to interbreed.
Then he found that the Mogul (?) emperor(s) forced a deportation of various groups about the 11th century covering all the required characteristics. Most (?) of them were deported to a camp in Afghanistan where they stayed for several generations. This camp is known today as the camp of the gypsies.
And it is likely that in that camp the various groups interbred and produced the gypsy migration across Europe.
Those details are all from memory and would need checking.
Of course no one is suggesting a connection with the Troubadours who likely were pursuing a secret agenda. See Liz Greene "Dreamer of the Vine".
Cheers
Russell
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Post by taylorsman on Jan 21, 2005 10:29:05 GMT
Leo, when I was younger we used to have a group of Travellers who over-wintered on a piece of waste ground in the part of Glasgow where I lived. They were however refered to as "Tinkers" rather than Gypsies, whom I understand are actually members of the Roma, a distinct European ethnic type.
I have to say that then in the 1960s , at least in Glasgow, there was not any great deal amount of animosity between these Travellers and the locals, both groups kept to themselves.
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Post by leonardo on Jan 21, 2005 13:39:21 GMT
Steve, the term "Tinker", with the possible exception of older folks, is rarely used back here. It was more commonplace during the 1960s. Incidentally, Tinker actually refered to someone's profession within the community; makers of pots and pans, etc. But it was often used to describe any member of the Travelling community, thought not always necessarily in a positive sense. Sadly, more often than not, it was used more pejoratively. Mind you, I've heard a lot more descriptive, disparaging expressions which makes the use of Tinker pale into insignificance in comparison!
The politically correct term (don't you just hate that word) is Traveller.
Unfortunately the animosity you correctly mentioned certainly does exist, and is worse in some areas. Parts of Dublin being a prime example. This is extremely regrettable but it seems to mainly involve the younger, less enlightened members of both communities.
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ruffashlar
Member
Lodge Milncroft No. 1515 (GLoS), Govanhill Royal Arch Chapter 523 (S.G.R.A.C.S.)
Posts: 2,184
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Post by ruffashlar on Jan 24, 2005 15:53:29 GMT
Incidentally, Tinker actually refered to someone's profession within the community; makers of pots and pans, etc
Indeed, and I myself am descended from such people, artificers in metal. There is a certain liberty perceived in being at the bottom of the heap, that is anything but carefree in reality, but which seems attractive to citybound drudges and farmland serfs. Consequently, the stereotype of the randy tinker, blocking up the housewives' rusty holes along with their pots' and pans', and scattering as much minstrelsy as sperm, is a long-lived and fondly absurd character in Irish folk music.
While I've no truck with the equally absurd Manichaean Toubadour bricklayers theory of Masonry, the tinkers do represent at least an enjoyable myth-memory of an itinerant culture nearly extinct now; but not quite. Although the bottom-mending satyr is himself as much a fantasy of Ireland as red-whiskered leprechauns, the travelling-man is a spectral figure who will not lie down and die, despite the best efforts of cultural terrorists.
You've got to move fast to keep up with the times For these days a man cannot dander There's a bylaw to say you must be on your way And another to say you can't wander
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Post by leonardo on Jan 24, 2005 18:06:38 GMT
Ruff, Always a pleasure to read your comments; even though I can’t claim to always understand them! But they always manage to bring a smile to my rather large face. Your inimitable way of expressing yourself is extremely, encouraging, stimulating and, dare I say, enlightening. For these reason alone it’s great to see you back posting again. And long may you continue to do so. The “Randy Tinker man”, I can confirm, is most certainly a myth, at least this is what my wife says! ;D
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