staffs
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Staffs
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Post by staffs on Jan 19, 2005 19:23:16 GMT
Sorry but i found this and had to hijack it as it will be interesting to see the different responses from those here who are very esoterical.
Modern ceremonial magic has been described as the dry path. The modern magician actively seeks to realize the divine through following a prescribed formula. The modern magician may through misuse of these means take a wrong turn, so to speak, and instead exalt personal ego, fixate on phenomena and become lost in the illusion of having powers.
In contrast and to the extent comparison is possible, Freemasonry has been described as a "wet path." The initiate is given keys (symbols), but no contention is made that the symbols open doors or suggests that they should even be used to open them. Through the symbolism presented in the framework of Freemasonry, an awakening may occur passively: Thus there is no chance of exceeding the initiate's preparedness to be awakened. The traditions of Freemasonry stress humility, harmony, and service to others: The wet path is less prone to problems of ego, fixation and illusion associated with the dry path. Using Old Testament symbolism, Freemasonry is a well-grounded traditional "system of morality veiled in allegory."
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Post by whistler on Jan 19, 2005 19:51:37 GMT
In contrast and to the extent comparison is possible, Freemasonry has been described as a "wet path." The initiate is given keys (symbols), but no contention is made that the symbols open doors or suggests that they should even be used to open them. Through the symbolism presented in the framework of Freemasonry, an awakening may occur passively: Thus there is no chance of exceeding the initiate's preparedness to be awakened. The traditions of Freemasonry stress humility, harmony, and service to others: The wet path is less prone to problems of ego, fixation and illusion associated with the dry path. Using Old Testament symbolism, Freemasonry is a well-grounded traditional "system of morality veiled in allegory." Good Hyjack Staffs. I am not in favour of Magic I don't thinks it exists. The Keys you mention are certainly there and the "Celestial Initiates " invite you to use them and open doors - Yet it is you who decides to take those keys and unlock those doors - Be sure Freemasonry offers the opportunity for "ego, fixation and illusion" with all its jewels regalia and rank and because of allegory it's Morality can be moulded to suit. This is where the Symbolic Judgement of the Mirror is so very important
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staffs
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Staffs
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Post by staffs on Jan 19, 2005 19:56:45 GMT
What is the difference between magic and magik.
Chris ??
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Post by a on Jan 19, 2005 20:52:41 GMT
So is Chris the Magic or the Magik, or just the difference between them? ;D
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Post by offramp on Jan 19, 2005 21:39:42 GMT
The k of magick stands for ktheis.
It was also Dr Dee's spelling.
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Post by middlepillar on Jan 19, 2005 22:45:13 GMT
What is the difference between magic and magik. Chris ?? Lee I have used your quote to start my Post, but Offramp could be right in the K stands for Ktheis, I do not know what the K stood for in the sense Offramp is saying. I do know The word Magick was adopted by Crowley to distuingish between his type of ceremonial magick and previous types of ceremonial magic in use at the time. Israel Regardie has also written a book on the Tree of Life, Called; The Tree of Life An illustrated Study in Magic. And one on The Golden Dawn, which contains Text by actual practitioners of The Golden Dawn System of Magick. Two ways of spelling the word, but perhaps the most confusing thing of all is that I dont think they are talking about magic as we at first understand it (As Whistler has said and I agree I dont believe in that form of magic) but are describing things far more spiritual and if you like esoteric, invocational stuff. In the hands of the wrong people invocational (magic/k) ceremonies can go very wrong. I am going to stop now but I would be interested to see what Hubert/Yoki/Russell etc have to say and I may try to add stuff later, (if I can and still be relevant). Unfortunately the topic on TFM came to an abrubt halt and I dont know why, perhaps we will get more discussion over here. Whistler Perhaps the real magic is found in the keys?
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Post by whistler on Jan 19, 2005 23:14:49 GMT
Yes Middlepiller, The Magic is in the Keys, and we only use the word magic, because our Mums used the words when they described something wonderful when we were little.
The "magic/magik " of Wicca, Trumpet flying Seances, and all the other ceremonies, they are simply cause and effect - when you do something - something will happen.
I agree that people who take part in invocational ceremonies, who don't understand what they are doing can cause themselves great and serious problems. In exactly the same way as I, with my lack of knowledge of the subject, Tried to fix the brakes on my car.
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Post by bevan on Jan 19, 2005 23:36:17 GMT
I think Crowley added the 'k' either to make the word fit under Gematria or because he was very much into Kemetic spirituality. In which case the 'k' is probably 'Khu' i.e. "Khabs is in the Khu, not Khu in the Khabs." Yes Alesteir, and the cheese is in the milk, not the milk in the cheese.
As far as magic(k) is concerned, surely the experienced magician does not need sigils, wands, rituals etc. From a techno-shaman to a Zulu Nyanga to a vegan pagan, magic is surely a conscious exercise of will to effect change on a universal conscious level. All their "tools" exist to help one believe in the cause and thus the effect. They are crutches for faith. An experienced "magician" can perform the ritual in their head and have the same effect. Ideally the merging of quantum physics and spirituality will mean that even hard-core Egyptian Crowley nuts can finally run over their dogma with their karma.
Change (material or mental) can only be effected (forward or backward in time) when there is enough Will to shift something from its path of least resistance. But of course for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. The ZPF guarantees it and makes no exceptions. Thus is magic fraught with danger. We will always get what we deserve and only the ZPF knows what that will be.
One could of course go straight for the pineal and smoke a litte DMT. Be sure to have your magic boots on though because those Invisibles sure can be tricky creatures! ;D Before you know it your Dry path will be your Wet path and your Wet path will have become your technicolour stairway to heaven with bells on it.
Of course I'm being a little tongue in cheek here.
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Post by a on Jan 20, 2005 17:15:29 GMT
An experienced "magician" can perform the ritual in their head and have the same effect. Bevan, how many "experienced magicians" do you guesstimate to be living on this planet at this time?
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bod
Member
UGLE - MM (London), MMM RAM(Middx), OSM (London)
Posts: 1,296
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Post by bod on Jan 20, 2005 18:02:42 GMT
Including you stewart?
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Post by whistler on Jan 20, 2005 18:20:56 GMT
Stewart, I have felt and seen heavy tables leap and move around rooms. I have family and friends who have seen Trumpets lift of tables float around rooms and heard voices coming from them. I have seen aports. I have seen coloured auras around hands of healers. I am not in any way unigue. and Much Much More...... None of these things require a magician none of it is magic.
Stewart a Magician, is an actor who has a sharp mind, understands the slight of hand and movement of eye, is an excellant entertainer so the answer to your question is probably thousands.
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Post by a on Jan 20, 2005 19:07:56 GMT
Whistler
Indeed, I am putting together a spooky magic show as part of my doing my bit for the local community, which I hope to have ready for Halloween.
Just made a floating table. Currently making some black art props.
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Post by a on Jan 20, 2005 19:11:27 GMT
Bod
Very funny. I have enough trouble learning to do Dai Vernons Linking Ring routine.
This will make you laugh.
Imagine me learning to do Dai Vernons Cups and Balls routine. For those of you who know it I was at the wand spinning stage. Then I heard a crack, and then I looked at my watch, it had a lovely crack all over the face.
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Post by leonardo on Jan 20, 2005 19:12:52 GMT
Stewart: can you make my mother-in-law disappear? ;D
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Post by a on Jan 20, 2005 19:18:45 GMT
Yes just give her 500 euro and see how quickly she goes to the shops.
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Post by leonardo on Jan 20, 2005 19:46:56 GMT
Stewart, if I though she'd stay away I'd gladly give her €5000.000 ;D
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Post by Yoki on Jan 20, 2005 23:41:38 GMT
Whistler wrote .I am not in favour of Magic I don't thinks it exists.
You and I agree on most issues that are discussed here Whistler but we will have to part company on this one .To me magic and in extension Wicca are yet an other path of evolution and are not dissimilar to what you and I practice. Within Co Masonry we invoke energy, we invite hidden beings to aid, add and participate in our ceremonies and at times the four elements are also called on. In Wicca initiates do the very same in a circles were candles and incense are used (believe me their magic is potent and real I have felt it). The only and very obvious difference here is their use of circles and ours of a square. There is a wide held believe in Wicca to harm none and to actively aid others, Masonry only profess to help others. Wicca,the Worshipers of the Goddess and feminism go hand in hand and the women involved hold different combinations of beliefs with in these three,with lone practitioners and others belonging to groups. I don't know a lot about Magicians but would assume the same methods are used.Are they more likely to take a wrong turn and end up with inflated personal egos. That I should think is as variable as in all walks of life with both participants of the so called dry and wet path fulling by the way side .As to one path being more passive than the other again individual personalities would dictate what is required .For example a advanced Magician would be well passed the level of a passive approach and would need more extensive material were as a learner is best of with a softly softly method. If it is Magic its self that is at question, then again a look at what it is and what it is not may help. For a start it is not what is viewed in films and on TV such as a wiggle of the nose and allsorts of goodies appearing, although some would say teleportation is a fact. Magic as far as I can tell involves invocation through visualisation and will power, the raising of energies which is used in various ways, the reaching out with the mind such as used in absent healing and working on other plains. So in other words Whistler you are activity involved in Magic, it’s just your definition that varies. There is a book called What goes on in a magical lodge, author (sorry I forget) available at our local library and so available to you for a small sum through inter city loan. This succinctly and clearly explains the magic that is worked in lodges and although Co Free Masonry is not identifiable its workings are clearly recognisable within this book.
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Post by whistler on Jan 21, 2005 0:37:50 GMT
Hi Yoki. You and I agree, I certainly agree with all you have said, the only difference is I call it Knowledge
When the wicca, and our lodges are "working" we are using the natural rescources of the Universe and the effect can be positive or negative in exactly the same way as a baker can make good of bad bread, the end resulting bread will depend on the knowledge of the baker, and the quality of the ingrediants. If he doesn't know what he is doing and puts in too much yeast the bread will go crazy - spillout of the tin and make a mess. or if he puts too little yeast the bread will be like a plank. When he learns to use yeast correctly all will be in harmony and the bread will be as desired. Note in my little example the yeast reacted because of something the Baker did both in a negative and a positive way. This is exactly the same cause and effect, we find in a wicca circle, or a lodge square. His knowledge created harmony and progress as in wicca, or Masonry that is why I call it Knowledge. not Magic. In a wicca or lodge incredible things happen because of things we have done - the first time it happens one may want to call it magic - then you work out why and what attracted the happening - then it becomes knowledge. I might add with knowledge fear vanishes When we envoke an energy we are applying ingrediants in that evocation: Re teleportation I heard of some people, in England during the war who "teleported" bread to a family in Belguim. I can't prove this but it certainly doesn't surprise me. HGW
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Post by Hubert (N. Z.) on Jan 21, 2005 4:49:48 GMT
Magic/k like Esoteric, has many meanings depending on the level of understanding of the reader.
There are those who know nothing of masonry and deem magic to be that which you see on TV.
There are those steeped in Spiritual pursuits and view it as a lower form of dangerous dabling.
Rather than debating the word, let us accept that like "GOD" it is a general term for that which needs to be revealed.
In a world of duality there will always be a great variety of interpretations. To my way of thinking we should post our thoughts and dwell on the content (what the presenter is trying to convey) rather than if the wording is accurate.
It's difficult enought trying to translate modern languages let alone ancient ones, as we need to understand the meaning at the time it was promulgated! (See "the Student Prince" a musical - opening chorus goes - 'COME BOYS LET'S ALL BE GAY BOYS")
It is he same for Magic & what it stands for. Far more is to be gained in investigating all the Knowledge presented, whether it is WET or DRY is really indifferent, we learn from both avenues.
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Post by a on Jan 21, 2005 7:22:12 GMT
I might add with knowledge fear vanishes Indeed. Worth repeating and thinking about.What about those that I have heard about who (are not at least aware) that they are invoking an energy (in the Bardon methology) they just think and do? Mind you it is all energy so it may be one and the same.
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