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Post by whistler on Feb 17, 2005 0:02:05 GMT
at another place a long long away, I noticed somebody who didn't understand the passion for Rugby some have.. he came from "St. John The Baptist, M.M.M. #404" I dare not post this where he posts so here we go. On Pierre stones site I found "LODGE OF THE HOLY STS. JOHN
Dedication, solemnly setting apart for some sacred purpose, is a ceremony too ancient for its beginnings to be known. Just where Masons left off dedicating their lodges to King Solomon cannot be stated historically; traditionally, as the first Temple was dedicated to King Solomon and the Second Temple to Zerubbabel, Masonry was first dedicated to Solomon, then to Zerubbabel, and finally, after Titus destroyed the Second Temple, to the Holy Sts. John.
But we do know that the dedication is very ancient; documentary evidence connects the name of St. John the Evangelist with Masonry as early as 1598. The connection must be far older; indeed, if we need further evidence of the possibility of the Comacine Masters having been the progenitors of the operative Freemasons we may find it in the frequent dedication of Comacine churches to one Saint John or the other. The whole island of Comacina is dedicated to St. John the Baptist and an annual festival and midsum mer pageant are observed in his honour to this day." Does any of the English St John Lodges have links back to Comacina? It seems to me another thread tracing the craft back through the ages
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Post by billmcelligott on Feb 17, 2005 3:46:53 GMT
Its a Carl H Claudy piece, www.skepticfiles.org/cp002/if_entap.htm"Introduction to Freemasonry", I like Claudy he writes without any superior overtones. Whatever the reason and whenever the date, Freemasons of to-day come from "the Lodge of the Holy Sts. John of Jerusalem," meaning that we belong to a lodge dedicated to those Saints, whose practices and precepts, teachings and examples, are those all Freemasons should try to follow. I would suspect the link goes back as far as the Craft Guilds go back. It would seem common practice for the Guilds to have a patron Saint. Here is an interesting entry from New Catholic Dictionary: There were three classes of persons in these guilds; the apprentices or learners, the journeymen, and the masters or employers. Apprenticeship usually lasted from three to ten years. The master was held responsible not only for the professional but also for the moral training of his apprentices. Upon the completion of his apprenticeship the young artisan became a journeyman qualified to work for other masters. To become a master, a journeyman was obliged to pass an examination before the elders of the guild. All the work was done in the house of the master, with whom the apprentices lived. The goods were made by hand with simple implements, and, as communication between towns was difficult, were usually sold at the town market or fair. Everyone in the town knew his neighbor, and an individuality stamped each man's work. This stimulated a spirit of emulation which resulted in the production of excellent work. The craft guilds cared for both spiritual and temporal interests of their members after the manner of the merchant guilds. The altered industrial and social conditions of Europe after the Reformation deprived the craft guilds of their power in England, while in France, Germany, and Italy, they were abolished by the authorities in the 18th and 19th centuries. www.catholic-forum.com/saints/ncd03776.htm
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Post by taylorsman on Feb 17, 2005 9:01:25 GMT
On "another place" I did a count of the Lodges under the Scots Constitution with "St John" in their names and came up with about 100 odd. Here under UGLE this is nothing like as common unless a place name , school, etc incorporates "St John" and the Lodge is named after that. I feel my old "friend" Fat Freddie "Frederick Augustus Duke of Sussex" may have had a hand in this. The Scots still mark the Feasts of St John, UGLE Lodges do not.
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Post by whistler on Feb 17, 2005 9:19:19 GMT
On "another place" I did a count of the Lodges under the Scots Constitution with "St John" in their names and came up with about 100 odd. Here under UGLE this is nothing like as common unless a place name , school, etc incorporates "St John" and the Lodge is named after that. I feel my old "friend" Fat Freddie "Frederick Augustus Duke of Sussex" may have had a hand in this. The Scots still mark the Feasts of St John, UGLE Lodges do not. I can see the political aspect but go back to the original post Does any of the English St John Lodges have links back to Comacina?
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Post by taylorsman on Feb 19, 2005 20:41:50 GMT
I can't answer your question about St John's Lodges in England and the Comacina, but CAN tell you that "St John's Masonry" is alive and well in the R.O.S.
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Post by billmcelligott on Feb 20, 2005 4:43:51 GMT
If memory serves me , I think the original meeting date of UGLE was St. Johns day. So putting on my detective hat there must have been a reason ? Organised Freemasonry became established on 24 June 1717 when four London lodges came together at the Goose and Gridiron Ale House, St Paul’s Churchyard, formed themselves into a Grand Lodge and elected Anthony Sayer, Gentleman, as their Grand Master www.mofreemason.com/gate422/The%20Two%20Saints%20John.htmThe two Saints of Freemasonry = Among American Freemasons there are two festivals in the Masonic calendar. The Feast of St. John, the Baptist, is celebrated on June 24th and the Feast of St. John, the Evangelist, on December 27th. www.mofreemason.com/gate422/The%20Holy%20Saints%20John.htmAccording to Albert Bede, (3-5-7 Minute Talks on Freemasonry, Macoy Publishing Co,), adoption of the saints by Freemasonry far antedates the first Grand Lodge of 1717. Various of the Operative Lodges had been dedicated to the Baptist and a few to the Evangelist. The Baptist seems to have come into Freemasonry well in advance of the Evangelist. It may be significant that the first Grand Lodge was formed at a meeting held on the Festival of Saint John the Baptist. Thereafter London Lodges were dedicated to the two Saints John, and continued to be until the union of 1813, since when they have been dedicated to Solomon. The festival of the English Lodges has since been changed to the Wednesday after St. George's Day. American Lodges have continued the custom brought from England in colonial times, paying no attention to changes made by the English Lodges and continue to observe the festival of the two Saints John.
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