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Post by hollandr on Apr 13, 2005 10:16:20 GMT
[quote author=ruffashlar That which you are waiting for has come - but you do not recognise it
Not so: I do recognise it. However, I am immobilised by my own inertia. This only means, there is nothing holding me back but myself. My shackles are lined with satin, my gaoler smiles pleasantly as he brings me room service. The world is my prison, and I have grown horribly comfortable in its secure, suffocating death-grip.[/quote]
Ruff
I apologise for not replying to this sooner but perhaps I was not ready.
Because, in the last few days I have run across 2 people who know what they want in terms of inner fulfilment but have found themselves unable to reach out and take it.
In both cases there were on-going dark interventions in their consciousnesses and light bodies that undermined their will to achieve. They were even reconciled spending the rest of their lives looking at the processes for fulfilment without being able to move towards them.
They both benefited from application of masonic science to free themselves. With some help they found the inertia was an unwelcome imposition and generated the psychic force to throw it off.
So, following my experience with those women I would ask you whether the inertia is yours or is imposed on you.
Of course, if the inertia were imposed then it might be more comfortable to assert that it was actually ones own choice. That would soothe the self image while satisfying the imposer.
All parties would be content and the inertia could continue.
Reply privately if you wish.
Cheers
Russell
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Post by bevan on Apr 13, 2005 14:34:32 GMT
How do we measure the success of "spiritual regeneration"? Surely it can only be measured in terms of wherever we happen to be (mentally) at the time. And even then we cannot be sure because our measuring instruments (i.e. our minds) influence the results in much the same way that Heisenberg's Uncertainty principle works.
Our measurement of the success of our spiritual growth is also affected by all the pre-conceived ideas we have about it. And when we feel we've grown have we moved up, down or sideways? Is it absolute growth, relative growth or is it simply what makes us feel better at the time? There is really nothing to confirm to us (outside of ourselves) that we're on the right track, or even that there is any track in the first place.
I have no doubt that I do spiritually "regenerate" from time to time in much the same way that a snake sheds its skin. It's not an earth-shattering process for me, rather a natural process of constant change. Although I do feel better about myself each time I have no idea if I'm right or wrong or perhaps even wasting my time. I currently think life itself is far more important than thinking about life so my spiritual regeneration is currently taking a back seat to regenerating my spirit.
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Post by hollandr on Apr 21, 2005 6:52:40 GMT
How do we measure the success of "spiritual regeneration"? Surely it can only be measured in terms of wherever we happen to be (mentally) at the time. And even then we cannot be sure because our measuring instruments (i.e. our minds) influence the results... Hello Bevan You are of course correct that the mind left to itself can endlessly deceive us. I see 3 options: - find an inner (or outer) teacher and trust them - introduce or exclude some influence to render the mind more reliable - find other levels of existence from which to assess. I would suggest that all three are implicit in Masonry and can be seen in the Emulation EA TB. Cheers Russell
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Post by bevan on Apr 21, 2005 10:26:50 GMT
Russell, Always interesting to read your views. I understand what you're trying to suggest but still I see no way to escape Mind... - find an inner (or outer) teacher and trust themYes, this is appealing. But an inner teacher, no matter how much we believe them to be seperate from us, is ultimately a product of and interacts with our mind. Even tulpa (Alexandre David-Neel's interpretation of the Tibetan 'sprul pa') are not free from the ongoing influence of mind. Similarly, an outer physical teacher is initially chosen by and interpreted via the existing and forming beliefs in our mind. For every action, reaction. For every reaction, action. - introduce or exclude some influence to render the mind more reliableYes, this is like introducing or removing a thorn in our side. Everything that comes next is then influenced by the thorn or the thought that we could have had the thorn. Introducing a new variable simply affects the result in some way, in no way does it make for a more 'truthful' or reliable result. For every action or non-action, reaction. - find other levels of existence from which to assess.Existence out of mind. Logically you wouldn't be able to tell me your experience of that because it would involve engaging your mind. I've had similar experiences but I believe that all is MIND. So whilst I might temporarily be out of my mind I am not really i.e. the MIND contains my mind. I then simply expand my mind to take in the new experience and it then becomes harder to get out of my mind the next time... Perhaps we're ultimately talking about the same thing here? However, I believe the experience is not necessarily a 'higher' experience, simply a new one, neither right nor wrong, backward nor forward. For me it is simply a new idea / experience which has always existed prior to my discovery of it. Value judgements of that experience belong firmly in my mind.
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Post by hollandr on Apr 22, 2005 4:41:36 GMT
Hello Bevan
"But an inner teacher, no matter how much we believe them to be separate from us, is ultimately a product of and interacts with our mind. ......."
Well I do not consider that to be true. The difficulty is that a brother who has not learned to climb Jacob's ladder (rise on the planes) has no means of determining whether a thought arises from the mind or is received by the mind from another source. This skill arises when the brother has control of 5.2 the second to highest subplane of the mental - the love-wisdom petals of the soul body.
" Introducing a new variable (into the mind) simply affects the result in some way, in no way does it make for a ore 'truthful' or reliable result."
Again I do not consider this to be true. If the brother is able to step outside the mind it is a relatively simple process to determine whether an unruly intelligence (internal or external) is undermining proper conceptual and experiential processes. The fundamental again is being able to rise above the mental plane.
"Logically you wouldn't be able to tell me your experience of that because it would involve engaging your mind. I've had similar experiences but I believe that all is MIND."
Well beliefs are mental so I suppose it would be natural for beliefs to predicate on the mental being the centre of existence. But there are many people in the world whose mental functioning is sufficiently elementary that it may be largely disregarded. Some of these are young children and elderly adults and some are naive adults.
Years ago I had to negotiate very long planks of wood around a crowded building site - me on one end and my mate on the other. I tried directing him with words but I could not speak quickly enough to direct him at the not very fast speed that we were moving.
After some time I gave up on words and tried visualising how we should negotiate each obstacle. Fortunately he was quite telepathic and visual and immediately we had coordinated activity without words. We worked well together from that point.
So that was at least one example where telling was not required.
Another situation - I was asked to diagnose a car of a friend without seeing it. I imagined that my body was crouching filling up the space of the car. Immediately my wrists felt floppy - and my friend agreed that the front suspension and steering was worn. Then I had trouble breathing and my friend agreed his car had carburettion problems.
My process there was to place my consciousness on 4.7. That is the lowest subplane of the heart/intuition where it is possible to identify with another entity and feel what it feels.
So my good result was no accident but application of masonic science as laid out for us in the Entered Apprentice Tracing Board.
So Bevan, while it may comfort people to say that all is mind, my experience is that that is most definitely not so and easily demonstrated by those who have learned Rising on the Planes.
Cheers
Russell
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Post by Hubert (N. Z.) on Apr 22, 2005 7:57:17 GMT
Bevan & Russell, You both pose very interesting comments on a dificult situation. We are all initially suspicious of what motivates us and the nature of true understanding. Surely the very purpose of looking within is to find that perfect and TRUE space that provides all answers. This can only be determined by the individual themselves, as only they know what rings REAL to them! To allow "outsiders" or a "Guru!" to control our thinking is open to the same problems already mentioned - I.E. what does he know? - A real Instructor/Guide understands that all enlightenment comes to the individual by his own work/contemplation.
For me that is the ultimate reason for our Earthly Existence. With each new REALISED revelation we move on to the next. Only WE can decide when that is appropriate, and in fact learn little by NOT makeing the occasional error!
Whatever I learn, I am happy to share, but feel no compulsion to insist it is the ONLY answer. If others can use it -GOOD- if not they at least have another means by which to TEST their OWN REVELATIONS.
This may not help those who want instant answers, but over time, I beleive, we all arrive at that same conclusion, even if -like J.G.Bennet- this only occurs on your death bed!
A true MASON helps others to their own personal understanding.
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Post by bevan on Apr 22, 2005 8:53:38 GMT
Russell, I think at the end of the day we must agree to disagree. I am glad that you have found your path and I certainly have found peace with mine. However, my last point is that all too often terms such as "rising on the planes", "5:2" etc. are all products of other people's systems. It is all very Golden Dawn'ish and I'm generally quite suspicious of formulaic enlightenment. I tend to think that people invest too much belief in the system itself. However, I realise that Masonry itself also has its stock collection of esoteric symbols too and that enlightenment at the end of the day comes uniquelly to us all.
Hubert, I tend to agree with your viewpoint in this regard.
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Post by taylorsman on Apr 22, 2005 10:15:34 GMT
It is interesting that I have met Bevan and was at his Initiation but would say that he and I have quite different views of what Freemasonry means and how it can be utilised as a means to personal enlightenment and advancement on Life's Journey.
However, I would agree with him that there is no "One, True Way", much as to my own mind there is no "One, True Religion". There are Tools we can use if we wish and are able to. How we apply them is our choice.
I have no "Guru" nor do I have much time for Gurus. A good Guide will help when asked, explain, even point one in the right direction, but he is not to be followed slavishly. In the end he is but another Human, and when dead is as dead as the next man. Gurus are also liable to be misinterpreted, to have sayings attributed to them to suit the purpose of a person or organisation, to have their words twisted. One has to sort the Wheat from the Chaff.
I feel that is is for each Individual to find his own way. When asked about my own beliefs and my take on them I always reply "Well. it works for me. It MAY work for you, but it is not for me to force my views and beliefs on another. I am happy to give you my experiences and knowledge but you must find your own way".
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