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Post by gevers1 on Oct 5, 2005 13:38:49 GMT
Stewart, at last an answer I can work with.
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Post by a on Oct 5, 2005 13:39:46 GMT
An answer which I have placed on forums several times.
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Post by gevers1 on Oct 5, 2005 13:45:39 GMT
but never as clearly and without the fluffy language. that's always been one of my frustrations with your postings and has been at the center of my frustrations. You (at last in my opinion) explain the how, so now I can go to work (and get on with some work ) Many of the events you speak of have occured to me, and have changed my attitude to life (birth of my kids, unemployment, relocation to another country, illness). FM has helpt me with that (and certain parts of the ritual certianly do that) but I dont think it's true to say that FM has been the way out of my personal dilemmas. What FM has given me though is an enormous sense of piece, a physical focus for my own belief system and a lot of good friends. .seb
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Post by billmcelligott on Oct 5, 2005 16:21:38 GMT
When I go to work in the morning I get in my car. I turn it on and I drive.
I finish my days work , so I get back in my car and turn it on and again off I go.
Now , I have completed my alloted tasks, done a good days work, fed my family and I am generally satisfied with the results.
Who takes the credit, Me or my Car?
Freemasonry, here I agree with gevers1, is the vehicle, it is you who takes the journey. It allows you to travel many roads, it allows you to choose the destination. However you get there quicker and safer if you have a good Car.
There thats not fluffy.
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Post by middlepillar on Oct 5, 2005 16:40:58 GMT
[quote author=gevers1 I guess he's given up on us 'mundanes' which is fair enough (unfortunately), I just wanted to put our side of the story. I shall now scuttle back to tfm.com. We dont sniff and snort there, we just blow. [/quote] Seb There is no us and them, Freemasonry is many things to many people, nothing is right or wrong, whatever you enjoy about it, is what is good for you. I hope you start visiting here and join in our topics. You will be most welcome. The only axe I have to grind with TFM is sometimes thier is a lack of tolerance that occasionally blossoms (not an appropriate term) in to open hostility. And for what? A person posing a question that some Posters on TFM basically think HOW DARE THEY. It is just a shame. I enjoy TFM and it has many many great things going for it, but tolereance is something that is sometimes missing.
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Post by gevers1 on Oct 5, 2005 16:50:12 GMT
I' going to spend some time reading the various forums here (yes, including the esoteric ones) and *try* to educate myself and try and understand what it's all about. I guess only from an informed position can I truly judge whether it works for me or not. Just dont get fluffy on me
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Post by taylorsman on Oct 5, 2005 17:54:12 GMT
A favourite Latin maxim of mine is "Surdo Fabulam Narras" meaning you are telling your story to a deaf man.
I left the other Forum for that reason and that I didn't like the draconian moderation by one of the Mods there and although I have had a look at it from time to time I will never post there again. This Forum having a different and more relaxed attitude and being far more receptive to Esoteric matters I moved here. Stewart is also more than welcome although I do find his approach a bit trying as he will not take a stand but tries to please all of the people all of time, whereas I am NOT "inclusive" and draw my lines in the sand.
So if Stewart feels at home here, good luck to him, and as I have said, he is more than welcome.
If Gevers wishes to scuttle back to TFM.com. have a safe journey and close the door on the way out please.
Kizzy the Cat (now aged 18 with my ex wife) has very good teeth and claws and is not at all "fluffy".
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Post by petertaylor on Oct 5, 2005 18:00:29 GMT
Remember this?
I must add to the observations of the WSW that you are never to put on that badge should you be about to enter a Lodge in which there is a Brother with whom you are at variance or towards whom you entertain any animosity. In such cases it is expected that you will invite the Brother to withdraw so that you may settle your differences amicably, which if happily effected you may then clothe yourselves, enter the L... and work together with that love and harmony which should at all times characterise Freemasons If, however, your differences are of such a nature as not to be so easily adjusted, it would be better that one or both of you should retire rather than the harmony of the Lodge be disturbed by your presence.
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Post by taylorsman on Oct 5, 2005 18:06:43 GMT
Which is why I left TFM.com and will never post there again.
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Post by therondunn on Oct 5, 2005 19:23:55 GMT
Well, I have been kicked off of thelodgeroom.com for being too open and honest about issues, and pursuing with others those issues. There are challenges with any group of folks. Stewart and I have talked offline about the issues he feels strongly about, and while I do not necessarily agree with all of them (he seesm to feel we should accept in amity anyone that claims to be a mason... including women) but otherwise seems to make some interesting and thoughtful posts.
I have seen him attacked gratuitously by folks, even mods at... other forums, and have stood up to defend him against those attacks. I guess the one thing that is so hard for some to take is a NON mason trying to tell masons how to act and be... and sometimes getting it right.
Stewart, you keep on telling it like you see it, and I will go on listening and occassionally agreeing.
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Post by kizzy on Oct 5, 2005 19:31:54 GMT
Welcome aboard Bro Theron Dunn. You will find "Liberty for Tender Consciences" here.
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Post by a on Oct 6, 2005 6:35:45 GMT
(he seesm to feel we should accept in amity anyone that claims to be a mason... including women) This may be worth clarifying. Many Freemasons appear to look at the seeds, ie a link back to UGLE. I however look at the fruits - which Freemasons and Lodges comprise people who have prepared themselves in their hearts and which are actively doing the Work. Also I see the inner beauty of the mysteries of Freemasonry and not its outer trappings. The organisation does not bother me, it is what Work the person is doing. And yes I am baffled at the exclusion of women from some fraternities. I have listened to many arguments but unless the men can all learn to balance their individual male and female energies then I have trouble seeing how their Work (internal work) can get very far. Equally I am aware that husband and wife lodges can become political and equally polarising. Again it is all about balance.
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Post by hollandr on Oct 6, 2005 6:44:26 GMT
Stewart
>Equally I am aware that husband and wife lodges
My wife and I went through together so we were JD and SD together and RWM and WSW together
I thought it was particularly nice to have strong relationships between the officers
Cheers
Russell
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Post by a on Oct 6, 2005 7:00:18 GMT
This is not a tfm bash, but following Taylorsman and Middlepillars comments above, I will use tfm as a case study. Why - because it illustrates darkness and light quite well.
Some people look at light and darkness as black and white. You are either good or bad so to speak. I don't I see it more as a sliding scale. One which every person and every organisation is on. And over time ones relative position on that scale can move.
Anyhow, in my opinion tfm was once a very enlightening place. Then a little before this forum was formed it slid down the scale and became darker very quickly. Darker as described by Taylorsman and Middlepillar. I have gone a little further than this privately with Andrew. Anyhow there will have been a reason for the darkness descending on tfm at that time. The most straightforward reason is to note moderation policies, for example the change at that time towards the esoteric, but there will be something lying behind this. It could be a fear (of a profane man daring?) or insecurity (help I dontunderstand all of this stuff?) or perhaps the Work was simply to much, or perhaps the forum wanted to stick to mainstream UGLE views, who knows, but until this hidden motivating issue is dealt with it is unlikely that the light will reappear. The trouble is that egos are a strongly powerful thing and learning to Master as oppose to be an Apprentice to ones Ego is difficult. Should tfm be able to so the work to itself, then the light will reappear, if not it won't. It really is that simple. I hope that it can, but it will take time, and it will be a difficult time for the owners and moderators should the forum try to do this. But it is them who have to do it. Fortunately tfm has all the tools that it needs in Masonic ritual. It just needs to apply them to the forum a bit more effectively. A bit more love, relief and truth as defined by the UGLE tenets, would go a long way. It is after all thefreemason.com. The Work is rarely easy.
And I Dare because the only way for Freemasonry to turn the corner is for the practice to align more with the theory. The owners and mods can either moan or they can do Masonic Work on the forum. If they moan the forum will continue to have a high turnaround and be limited in its appeal. If it does the Work (and I don't underestimate how difficult this will be) it stands every chance of becoming a leading light once again. But it needs to do the Work, no one can wave a magic wand. Hopefully egos wont get in the way.
All clearly in my personal opinion.
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