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Post by jratcliff on Oct 28, 2006 15:12:59 GMT
Recently I have been trying to understand the concept of 'magick'. My reason for doing so it two fold. First, a man I greatly respect (Robert Anton Wilson) has said postiive things about this process. Out of respect for him I am willing to learn what I can about the topic. The other reason is that I am spending an outrageous amount of time both learning and performing Freemason ritual. I find it satisfying when I perform it in lodge but it is a surface value only. I get the satisfaction of having done something difficult and performed it well. I do not, however, contact the astral plane if you catch my drift. I am an open minded skeptic and am willing to explore alternative modalities and experiment with flexible belief systems out of intellectual curiosity. That said, I remain utterly bemused and confused by the material I find in books and on the Internet. I suspect that the astral realm is outside of my grasp; that my brain is simply not wired in a way to access it no matter what exercises I practice. When I do read various material on magical practices the Elephant in the Room jumps out. It is quite clear that Freemason ritual has magical purposes. There can be no doubt. The ritual found in all forms of magick mirror what we do in the Freemason lodge with great correspondence. If there is supposed to be a deeper purpose and meaning behind our ritualistic work I would like to explore that. I have never met an esoteric Freemason in any lodge I have ever visited. I have read numerous books on the topic but they are couched in terminology and make reference to altered states of consciousness and experience that I clearly do not understand. When posing these sorts of questions in the past I have received a deafening silence; or glib comments like 'It can't be explained in words.' A lot of use that is to someone who is struggling to understand any of it. This is, afterall, the esoteric forum. I set up a Weblog for the sole purpose of documenting the understanding, *ANY* understanding I ever come to terms with on this topic. Right now I"m afraid the blog will remain empty of posts for the forseeable future. understandingmagick.blogspot.com/
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Post by ariel on Oct 28, 2006 15:31:01 GMT
Too much of anything can be bad (and confusing). Maybe you should concentrate more on understanding your present state and allow knowledge of magic to filter through slowly so you can appreciate its diversity. I do not claim that I am an expert, far from it, but how about starting with the Kaballah. You might take years and years to understand the fundamental concepts but at least you will have a basic grounding to further enlightment. Kind regards, Ariel
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Post by jratcliff on Oct 28, 2006 16:04:21 GMT
>>Kaballah
I'm not Jewish. Seriously, I'm not going to spend 'years' on anything unless I am convinced it is worth my time. This is a legitimate question. It seems to me that there is a general assumption that if you can achieve some access to the astral realm that is it worth, literally, anything to do so.
I need to know what are the benefits. Why is it worth the time and effort? What value does it have? Can I gain the effect without adopting belief systems I find contrary?
First of all, I detest the Old Testament and have no interest in any esoteric study which draws upon it. The Old Testament is a horific document filled with an image of God as a terrorist and a tyrant. It describes brutal murders, genocide, and all manner of immoral teachings. It is the last place I would go searching for enlightenment.
No, I'm looking for something a bit more basic. What are the benefits of performing magic? More than half of the magic spells I see online involve providing protection and warding from imaginary entities that you wouldn't need protection from had you not wasted so much time inventing them to begin with.
With magic can you:
Levitate Perform telekinesis Make stuff magically appear Teleport
In short, anything that impacts seemingly objective reality.
If the bulk of magic is imagining imaginary entities that want to attack you then, no, that doesn't sound very appealing.
What is the 'astral plane'? How do you experience it? What if you are incapable of experiencing it? What are the benefits of contacting the astral plane at all? What lessons are there to be learned?
Thanks,
John
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Post by ariel on Oct 28, 2006 18:28:41 GMT
What I said was a suggestion and no more than that. Hope you find what you are seeking, jratcliff. All The Best, Ariel
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Post by jratcliff on Oct 28, 2006 22:35:12 GMT
What I said was a suggestion and no more than that. Hope you find what you are seeking, jratcliff. All The Best, Ariel Sorry Brother Ariel. I thank you for your suggestion. I was just verbalizing my frustration with material that is bound to the myths in the Old Testament. I'm looking for something a bit more modern and couched in scientific terminology. Thanks for your suggestions.
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Post by wayseer on Oct 29, 2006 0:48:42 GMT
The ritual found in all forms of magick mirror what we do in the Freemason lodge with great correspondence. You are going to have to elaborate here - exactly which bits of Masonic ritual/symbols are magick - bearing in mind your definition ; - I think Ariel (female) gave you some sound thoughts. But the study of Kabbalah is long and intense, something which I suspect you are avoiding - it seems you are looking for easy answers - just tell me what to do and Hey presto - there I am. Sorry, no deal - you do the work. If you really want to know how symbols, mysteries, ritual, myths might work you could consider studying anthropology - that should keep your head down for four years or more. Then you might lit out for some corner of the world and concentrate your study in one area, say Buddhism - and then you might understand how the dark side of polictics is always present in myths, stories, narrative, legends and that the stories which now horrify you (all that old Testament stuff) are present everywhere. I guess that a hard call on my part. What I am endeavouring to demonstrate is the level of commitment required. If you are committed to the path expect roadblocks, setbacks, detours and the odd washed-out bridge to negotiate. But take courage - you have started and as it is said 'a journey of a thousand miles begins with the fisrt step'. That path is yours and yours alone - don't copy others - they are following their own path which will inevitable be different to yours.
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Post by gipsyrose on Oct 29, 2006 2:41:41 GMT
Hi John,
I have a long way to go in developing my sensitivity, however a place that I started that made a difference was to practice being in the present moment by becoming very aware of what I am experiencing physically through my senses, both internally and externally. That is, concentrating on what I am actually hearing, seeing, smelling, tasting and physically feeling (e.g. the connection of the earth with my feet, or the feel of my clothes and the temperature of the air against my skin), and also being aware of what I am experiencing inside my body. I have found breath awareness and the connection of my body with the earth to be great places to start.
It sounds simple, and in my experience there is much to learn from this practice of what some call grounding.
gipsyrose
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Post by Liberty on Oct 29, 2006 3:20:40 GMT
Bro. John
I find it interesting that you say you detest the old testament yet spend alot of time studying Masonic ritual which has old testament scripture references and characters in it.
I agree the old testament does have some appalling incidents but it also contains the very beautiful "Song of Soloman" not to mention some wonderful readings in "Pslams" and Proverbs" One must shift thorugh the begats and the who slew who.
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Post by hollandr on Oct 29, 2006 6:19:50 GMT
>I'm not going to spend 'years' on anything unless I am convinced it is worth my time. This is a legitimate question. It seems to me that there is a general assumption that if you can achieve some access to the astral realm that is it worth, literally, anything to do so.
John
There are of course more realms than the astral. Indeed the access to the astral (emotional) is not highly regarded amongst practising metaphysicists. This is because it is at a low level and has many artificial or misleading entities and structures.
Still, for those so inclined, the astral plane can provide much scope for fantasy and diversion from the physical world.
In my experience, the greatest impacts on the outer world come from right relationship with the beings of the inner worlds. And those right relationships are based necessarily upon right relationship with those intelligences that make up the instinct sub-consciousnesses of the human.
Right relationship with what is inside of us is the work of many lifetimes. But once accomplished, leads easily to magical relationships with other beings
Cheers
Russell
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Post by jratcliff on Oct 29, 2006 21:41:49 GMT
John Ford wrote: “You are going to have to elaborate here - exactly which bits of Masonic ritual/symbols are magick - bearing in mind your definition ; -“
My references would be Leadbeater, Wilmhurt, and simply the fact that we perform an initiatory ritualistic ceremony which bears a striking resemblance to all forms of ritual magick.
John Ford wrote: “But the study of Kabbalah is long and intense, something which I suspect you are avoiding - it seems you are looking for easy answers - just tell me what to do and Hey presto - there I am. Sorry, no deal - you do the work.”
No, that is not the case at all. I think here we get to the crux of the issue. I am not looking for easy answers or instant presto solutions. I have been a Freemason for over two years now. I have memorized all of the opening and closing ritual for all parts, including the Masters part and all of the prayers. I have memorized the first degree charge and delivered it several times. I have been an officer in three chairs and currently am a Junior Deacon in one lodge and Junior Warden in another. I recently delivered a 30 minute educational presentation.
Currently I am trying to learn the entire second degree lecture which is roughly 2500 words as well as the accompanying floor work. I struggle greatly with memory work and I am lucky to be able to memorize on average ten words a day. By that measure it is going to take me many months to the learn the entire 2nd degree lecture in time for when I will be the Senior Deacon in my lodge next fall.
So you see, I don’t expect things to be easy. And I am willing to put in the work. Right now I am looking for meaning.
What you perceive as wanting easy answers it actually my strong desire to get clear explanations. It’s not that I won’t spend years working towards something worthwhile but, first, I want someone to articulate *why* it is worthwhile. After all, we are talking about a major investment. If that investment also comes with it dogma and historical baggage that has to be factored into account as well.
Gipsyrose wrote: “I have a long way to go in developing my sensitivity, however a place that I started that made a difference was to practice being in the present moment by becoming very aware of what I am experiencing physically through my senses,..”
Thank you. This makes a tremendous amount of sense to me. I appreciate your advice.
Liberty wrote: “I find it interesting that you say you detest the old testament yet spend alot of time studying Masonic ritual which has old testament scripture references and characters in it.”
First of all, I should apologize for my previous remarks. They were sharp, abrupt and, frankly, unharmonious. I gave a flippant response because I was frustrated that the first thing I got as a reply involved years of dabbling in ancient tradition which I could not be less personally interested in. I only have this one life to deal with and I could spend all of it embedding myself in the mythology of any one of hundreds of traditions. I don’t have that much time and I have long since rejected Kaballah as not being my cup of tea.
Most of my belief systems and models come from the scientific method. If I am going to ultimately form any magical beliefs they too will have to derive from scientific modalities.
As I said, I detest the Old Testament on moral grounds. I have struggled with the references to the Old Testament in Masonic ritual since day one. In fact, one of the most egregious references is actually in the Fellowcraft lecture.
I have been able to let it slide since nobody seems particularily concerned with selling these stories as dogma. To be frank the entire Hiram myth completely goes past me. I rather like the first and second degrees but the Hiram legend has never done a whole lot for me.
Russel Holland wrote: “There are of course more realms than the astral. Indeed the access to the astral (emotional) is not highly regarded amongst practicing metaphysicists. This is because it is at a low level and has many artificial or misleading entities and structures.”
Russel, things are going woosh, woosh, woosh, past my head. I used the phrase ‘astral realm’ in an abstract way. I have no clue what an ‘astral’ realm is. To be frank, I have no reason to believe such a thing exists since it is outside my realm of experience. I certainly don’t believe in entities, spirits, astral travel, or any of these other concepts.
How could I since it defies explanation, is without evidence, is not addressed by the scientific method, and is outside my experience?
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Post by maat on Oct 29, 2006 23:24:11 GMT
Hi John Re the memory work.... what you are doing PRACTICALLY, is rewiring your brain. This will be of immense use to you. Meditation helps bring the right brain/left brain into sync... the memory work involved in memorising ritual does the same thing. This 'stability' of the mind/brain is just one of the reasons that at the outset of your Masonic career, you passed between the Pillars of Polarity. Unless thine (mind's) eye be single... Edgar Cayce's source said constantly that Thought is the Builder. Memory work makes you think constantly on how to improve yourself and subsequently the world. Thoughts produce vibrations and "like attracts like". If all Masons throughout the world knew what they were saying and doing and believed totally in what they were saying and doing they would be amazed at the result. We have seen the 'Power of One' in action. Can you imagine the Power of Masonry? This is the real magic... the ability to attract that which you need to help you make manifest in this world what you wish. If you follow the instruction book which we call ritual - you will sooner or later attract not only positive responses from the world around you but also positive responses from the unseen world around you. Light attracts light. Few have the patience and perserverence for this initiation however. Only the totally committed will succeed. May I suggest that you try your hand at dowsing/pendulum work. Get a 'how to' book and give it a go. Most people can dowse or use a pendulum. This is the easiest way I know how to get tangible results and test the saying "like attracts like". I share your sentiments re the old testament... If the "Gods" weren't space invaders with their own agenda's ... then you might find the Alvin Boyd Kuhn's work of much interest. www.mountainman.com.au/ab_kuhn.htmlwww.theosophy.ca/LostLight1.htmMaat
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Post by jratcliff on Oct 29, 2006 23:58:45 GMT
Thanks all. I think I just had an epiphany this evening anyway. This came mostly from reading Chaos Condensed but also by recently consuming a wide array of diverse material simultanously.
The epiphany I had is that it doesn't matter one tiny bit whether I ever have mystical experiences to be a competent magician. Moreover, I realize that I am a magician (in fact have been a pretty decent one for the past ten years or so), and I'm getting better all of the time.
I realize now that we are *all* magicians whether we call ourselves that or not. It's not like we have a choice in the matter since it is simply what we are.
I don't need to visit the astral realm, communicate with entities, or channel spirit guides. None of that matters. It might be cool, but it is unnecessary.
The textbook definition of magick is 'change through will'. We *all* affect change through will. Even those idiots who use their free will to argue a pointless philisophical debate that they don't have one.
There are those who believe the world 'happens to them' and then there are those who believe they 'happen to the world'.
The first type of people are poor magicians and the latter are well on their way.
If you create change through will you are performing a magical act. When you take responsibility for that, own it, visualize it, and express it, you are performing 'the great work'.
I guess my epiphany is that I don't need to access the mystical realms of Russel or others on this forum. I merely need to continue the journey I am on, and have been on, for a very long time.
I am still extremely doubtful if I will ever have mystical experiences but I am blessed with a rich dreaming life and feel a great bond of Fraternity with my brethren when we perform ritual. That is more than satisfying enough.
Brother John
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Post by maat on Oct 30, 2006 0:06:22 GMT
With magic can you: Levitate Perform telekinesis Make stuff magically appear Teleport In short, anything that impacts seemingly objective reality. Levitation - St Joseph of Cupertino..His life was now one long succession of visions and other heavenly favours. Everything that in any way had reference to God or holy things would bring on an ecstatic state: the sound of a bell or of church music, the mention of the name of God or of the Blessed Virgin or of a saint, any event in the life of Christ, the sacred Passion, a holy picture, the thought of the glory in heaven, all would put Joseph into contemplation. Neither dragging him about, buffeting, piercing with needles, nor even burning his flesh with candles would have any effect on him -- only the voice of his superior would make him obey. These conditions would occur at any time or place, especially at Mass or during Divine Service. Frequently he would be raised from his feet and remain suspended in the air. Besides he would at times hear heavenly music. Since such occurrences in public caused much admiration and also disturbance in a community, Joseph for thirty-five years was not allowed to attend choir, go to the common refectory, walk in procession or say Mass in church, but was ordered to remain in his room. Telekinesis - Yuri Geller is genuine I think, having read his biography. Make stuff magically appear - Madame Blavatsky was one person who could do that. Teleport - if this is same a bi-location you could check out Padre Pio. "So many people want to know more about St. Padre Pio. Who is this man who cured the blind, Who could be in two places at the same time, Who spoke many languages in the confessional, Who was a good priest,Who bore the wounds of Christ, Who suffered greatly, Who prayed prayed constantly, Who touched so many lives, Who loved Jesus and Mary, Who had a constant relationship with his guardian angel,Who was a Saint?" members.aol.com/goodyburk/padrepio.htmlSo I guess if you can find just one person who can do these things they can be done. I think you might be wasting your time if you think that Freemasonry will enable you to do these things (in one lifetime ) Cheers Maat
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Post by maat on Oct 30, 2006 0:46:43 GMT
I am still extremely doubtful if I will ever have mystical experiences but I am blessed with a rich dreaming life and feel a great bond of Fraternity with my brethren when we perform ritual. That is more than satisfying enough. Brother John Light attracts Light - You sought and you found - You knocked and it was opened to You... See how potently "You" worked the magick here. Yegads man - you need no more instruction from us ;D Well done. Maat
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Post by hollandr on Oct 30, 2006 1:05:45 GMT
> I certainly don’t believe in entities, spirits, astral travel, or any of these other concepts. How could I since it defies explanation, is without evidence, is not addressed by the scientific method, and is outside my experience?
John
I am not sure belief, one way or the other, is of much use if you wish to enter into spiritual science.
And you may find that the principles of materialistic science operate just as well in spiritual science.
If you wish to enter into spiritual science then you will need years of training - as in any science.
In this case the first exercise is close at hand: Learn to ascend Jacob's Ladder at will. The actual exercise is known as Rising on the Planes. It is taught in the qabalah and some versions are taught in various new age groups but the latter versions are not suitable for the spiritual scientist as they do not include efficient measurement systems
Cheers
Russell
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Post by jratcliff on Oct 30, 2006 2:37:32 GMT
Well, this thread not only got me thinking but also reading. I just made a new post on my 'understanding magick' weblog with some of these thought. understandingmagick.blogspot.com/
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Post by corab on Oct 30, 2006 4:24:17 GMT
John, Great blog you've got there -- I like your approach! I am an open minded skeptic and am willing to explore alternative modalities and experiment with flexible belief systems out of intellectual curiosity. Probably the best attitude to go with, actually. An open mind without skepticism is prone to accepting just about an odd rubbish, whilst a skeptical mind without any openness will reject anything off the beaten track. Pardon the slight tongue in cheek, but you may not be visiting the right Lodges, if you catch my drift. I expect Co-Masonic Lodges are squarely in the 'clandestine' corner from your GL's point of view, but that's where it's happening, Bro. I'd be delighted to share some of my experiences, but some of that really is not for a non-tyled forum, so perhaps we can conduct that discussion off-site; drop me a PM if you like. S&F, Cora
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Post by wayseer on Oct 30, 2006 9:46:04 GMT
My references would be Leadbeater, Wilmhurt, and simply the fact that we perform an initiatory ritualistic ceremony which bears a striking resemblance to all forms of ritual magick. I fail to understnd how, as you wrote, 'levitation, telekinesis, make stuff appear by magkic, and teleporting' are part of the Masonic ritual. There is a difference between what you give me to understand as you definition of magick and 'resemblences'. The 1st degree might 'resemble' any number of initiative practice around the world - such practices are after all rites of passage - but that is a far cry from levitation etc etc ... I take it by referring to 'it' you mean Freemasonry. If you don't know 'why' you joined the Craft then I doubt anyone can help you. But as you point out the fact that you are working at the ritual indicates that are investing time and energy - which has me perplexed as to why you are doing something but you don't know 'why' you're doing it. What about using your 'scientic method' here - why moral grounds? Maybe you might like to research this particular myth a little - there are a number of very good reasons why the myth survives. John, I think what Russell is pointing out is that there are many things we, as humans, have yet to understand and some, many most likely, will not have ready made scientic explanation for them. Take Dark Matter - no one can proves it exists let alone observe it yet it has to exist in order to balance the whole universe. Masonry is something similar - perhaps that is why you refer to the ritual as magick - the ritual possess qualities that are not scientically certifiable therefore you do see them. Perhaps that's the log jam in your mind - nothing in the ritual adds up in the way you might like it. John, I don't know if you have ever taken a Myers-Briggs Personality Type Test - No, I'm not suggesting your a nut case, or having some sort of go at you - far from it. The M-B test, which it is a recognised scientific test, determines you personality type and its values lies in its ability to give one a handy insight into the way one thinks - it all depends on one's primary thinking mode. Me, for the records, I'm INFP. There are number of web sites where you can do the test on line - quite illuminating and might provide you with some useful insights. All of which may well answer you questions better than any of us here.
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Post by ariel on Oct 31, 2006 2:00:08 GMT
Bro. John has a very good point in suggesting a Myers-Briggs Personality Type Test and speaking as a psychologist it really does help .
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jmd
Member
fourhares.com
Posts: 1,081
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Post by jmd on Nov 1, 2006 9:51:36 GMT
Just to pick up a couple of points made by jratcliff. In the first place, to say that: is a little like a blind person saying they do not believe in stars because they have never seen them and it is totally outside their realm of experience. Or, for that matter, of someone denying that dreams really do exist because they never 'experience' them. This is a little like Plato's Allegory of the Cave in his Republic. Those experiences of various entities and the like certainly defies certain types of explanations. The question then becomes whether the evidence (the reports) are at fault, or whether the suggested explanation is inadequate. After all, gravity was long rejected on the grounds that there can be no effects at a distance! With regards to magic in general (and I frankly do not understand why the Germanic form of spelling, via Crowley, with its added final 'k', has become so prominent in the US), one may indeed view it as 'directed will', yet this has to be tempered with its equilibrating force of grace or, speaking more Masonically, Caritas or Love. It is not simply a matter of a two-pronged approach to the world: either I'll conquer it, or it shall conquer me! Rather, meeting the world is an engagement that requires not only will, but reverence and the developing sense of discernment between what is, and what is not, important. At times, this may also mean 'stepping back' and accepting the world coming to meet us even in ways we may not ultimately have chosen, rather than imposing our will in part immaturely formed.
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