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Post by holming on Apr 23, 2007 16:06:42 GMT
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giovanni
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Post by giovanni on Apr 23, 2007 18:04:45 GMT
There is a thing a bit harsh for me: how can man reconcile Freemasonry's universality with the Christian faith as requirement for initiation.
Can somebody explain it?
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Post by holming on Apr 23, 2007 18:52:19 GMT
Freemasonary spread in Europe during the eighteen century. At that time it was in many countries mandatory to confess to the religion, which was stipulated by the state. Further, from my point of view, I see a strong relationship between freemasonary and the Christianity. I guess that we are a bit conservative and I haven't been in a lodge abroad. So, I cannot compare. Check this link out: www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/swedish_constitution.html
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giovanni
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Post by giovanni on Apr 23, 2007 19:43:02 GMT
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jmd
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Post by jmd on May 2, 2007 2:40:58 GMT
Perhaps, to their credit that also has to be acknowlegded, though they restrict membership to Christians, they do not forbid non-Christian Masons visiting. Indeed, my own GL and theirs fully recognising one the other, it is possible that a brother from my own jurisdiction who has, since his initiation, become an atheist, may legitimately visit.
It is this kind of acceptance of the the differences that I personally value. To have as a rule for their own membership some constraints is fine, as long as due (and full) recognition of others as Freemasons is also maintained.
Now if only they would similarly recognise the visits of other Freemasons they exclude from membership based on gender!
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Post by munkholt on May 2, 2007 7:28:35 GMT
Didn't Anderson refer to Protestantism and Catholicism? And wasn't Freemasonry at that time de facto Christian? (even though we can probably agree to there being a much older, pre-Christian FMry) (Those questions are not meant to be controversial -- but it is something that I have read in many places. The subject has run into some heat elsewhere ...)
The Swedish Rite exists bcause of a number of political and historical reasons; same as Atheism developed in French FMry. The system is Christian, and it is also Masonic.
I think the important thing is that the Scandinavian Christian Order remains tolerant to all religions, and indeed as JMD said, we welcome visitors of any faith (or none, as long as they are regular) -- it's not even up for discussion (strange that it has even come into question: that you can be tolerant and a Christian!). Also, in Denmark the GL also has a sort of concord with The Ancient Fraternity of F&AM, whereby they can have their own "traditional" (Emulation) lodges, which are then given their regularity through GL. So you still have a choice even within this Christian GL.
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Post by munkholt on May 2, 2007 7:47:48 GMT
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Post by devoutfreemason on May 17, 2007 19:00:28 GMT
IMHO the Swedish Rite is Freemasonry in name only. It is in actuality a Christian fraternity aligned strongly with the Swedenborg church. Kind of like the Knights Of Columbus for Protestant Christians.
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Post by munkholt on May 17, 2007 20:04:37 GMT
IMHO the Swedish Rite is Freemasonry in name only. Well, colour me surprised! It has nothing, whatsoever, to do with the Swdenborg Church. I didn't even know that such a thing existed until now. I know some older, second hand sources mention Swedenborg, but from reading actual, and first hand, Sw. Rite sources it is doubtful that he had any direct influence on the rite. Don't get me wrong, this Swedenborg fella might be really nice (I know him in name only), but he is not considered an influence on Swedish Rite as it exists today. Whether that is freemasonry or no, well, I don't think we can have that discussion without going against the tenets of this forum (i.e. "HOWEVER due respect is to be shown to the various Grand Lodges and Masonic Bodies in existance").
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Post by devoutfreemason on May 17, 2007 21:18:31 GMT
I do have respect for those Brothers who belong to the Swedish Rite. I have done a ton of research on it and have found that IMHO it is more of a protestant private club than a "progressive science, vailed in allagory and illustrated through symbols." The Swedish Rite is exclusionary in the fact that only members of a certain faith can be accepted as members and that the highest level of the art is not open to every member. IMHO, both of those practices are not Masonic in nature.
No disrespect intended and please, do not take it that way. The Swedish Rite is not Freemasonry, other than it calls itself Freemasonry.
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on May 17, 2007 21:50:23 GMT
I do have respect for those Brothers who belong to the Swedish Rite. I have done a ton of research on it and have found that IMHO it is more of a protestant private club than a "progressive science, vailed in allagory and illustrated through symbols." The Swedish Rite is exclusionary in the fact that only members of a certain faith can be accepted as members and that the highest level of the art is not open to every member. IMHO, both of those practices are not Masonic in nature. No disrespect intended and please, do not take it that way. The Swedish Rite is not Freemasonry, other than it calls itself Freemasonry. In describing the Rite as a Protestant private club, you raise an interesting point which, paradoxically, may attest to their Masonic credentials. The Rev. Drs. Desaguliers, Anderson and others appear to have been responsible for reorganising the two degree system with which the Premier Grand Lodge began. They also appear to have introduced the Third Degree, together with the Hiramic Legend. The majority of these Brethren were Calvinists and Calvinism at the time had Hermetic roots, going back to the Waldensians and beyond. Martin Luther's personal seal had featured the Rose and Cross and Rosicrucianism was once considered to be the mystical arm of the Reformation. Those familiar with the legend of Christian Rosencreuz (said to have died the same year Luther was born), will see parallels in the legend of the discovery of his body in the Hiramic Legend. Many of the Heremetic lessons which some draw from Freemasonry are likely to have been introduced around the same time as was this legend. Thus, I would not be too put off by a form of Freemasonry which appears to be a Protestant private club. They may well be practicing a form much as the Rev. Drs. intended. Indeed, the opening up of the Craft to other faiths may have had an element of self interest, as they had been recently persecuted for their faith.
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Post by devoutfreemason on May 17, 2007 22:04:58 GMT
I do have respect for those Brothers who belong to the Swedish Rite. I have done a ton of research on it and have found that IMHO it is more of a protestant private club than a "progressive science, vailed in allagory and illustrated through symbols." The Swedish Rite is exclusionary in the fact that only members of a certain faith can be accepted as members and that the highest level of the art is not open to every member. IMHO, both of those practices are not Masonic in nature. No disrespect intended and please, do not take it that way. The Swedish Rite is not Freemasonry, other than it calls itself Freemasonry. In describing the Rite as a Protestant private club, you raise an interesting point which, paradoxically, may attest to their Masonic credentials. The Rev. Drs. Desaguliers, Anderson and others appear to have been responsible for reorganising the two degree system with which the Premier Grand Lodge began. They also appear to have introduced the Third Degree, together with the Hiramic Legend. The majority of these Brethren were Calvinists and Calvinism at the time had Hermetic roots, going back to the Waldensians and beyond. Martin Luther's personal seal had featured the Rose and Cross and Rosicrucianism was once considered to be the mystical arm of the Reformation. Those familiar with the legend of Christian Rosencreuz (said to have died the same year Luther was born), will see parallels in the legend of the discovery of his body in the Hiramic Legend. Many of the Heremetic lessons which some draw from Freemasonry are likely to have been introduced around the same time as was this legend. Thus, I would not be too put off by a form of Freemasonry which appears to be a Protestant private club. They may well be practicing a form much as the Rev. Drs. intended. Indeed, the opening up of the Craft to other faiths may have had an element of self interest, as they had been recently persecuted for their faith. I am not telling anyone to be "put off by" the Swedish Rite. At the same time people have to be aware of the differances between The Swedish Rite and Freemasonry. It's only fair.
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Post by munkholt on May 18, 2007 5:31:55 GMT
Okay, fine. My caveat is that any alleged "difference" doesn't have anything to do with Swedenborg. Based on your comments here I simply don't think you know the subject well enough to dismiss what we do in Swedish Rite.
It's similar to me saying, "Le Droit Humain is not freemasonry because they accept both men AND aliens." (Well, some may say that's a fitting description, but never mind ... ;D)
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Post by a on May 18, 2007 6:24:00 GMT
It's similar to me saying, "Le Droit Humain is not freemasonry because they accept both men AND aliens." (Well, some may say that's a fitting description, but never mind ... ;D) Thats it my membership application is a step closer. Aliens I would love to sit in a lodge full of aliens from across the galaxies. Given that Mike is a self confessed avatar reptilian alien does that mean he will be there ;D
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staffs
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Post by staffs on May 18, 2007 7:38:18 GMT
It's similar to me saying, "Le Droit Humain is not freemasonry because they accept both men AND aliens." (Well, some may say that's a fitting description, but never mind ... ;D) Thats it my membership application is a step closer. Aliens I would love to sit in a lodge full of aliens from across the galaxies. Given that Mike is a self confessed avatar reptilian alien does that mean he will be there ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D I think i have sat in a lodge full of aliens at some stage,.
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Post by Siontific on May 18, 2007 11:50:31 GMT
Ahh, I thought I had seen you before HuuMan. Aren't you the balding Carbon Based Unit living in Brighton who plays with water pipes? Or maybe you aren't HuuMan after all. Are you not A-Lee-N yourself?? Do you have a permit to be on this planet?
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Post by devoutfreemason on May 18, 2007 15:44:28 GMT
Okay, fine. My caveat is that any alleged "difference" doesn't have anything to do with Swedenborg. Based on your comments here I simply don't think you know the subject well enough to dismiss what we do in Swedish Rite. It's similar to me saying, "Le Droit Humain is not freemasonry because they accept both men AND aliens." (Well, some may say that's a fitting description, but never mind ... ;D) I would argue that the LDH is expressly Masonic, because they embrace the central Masonic values of tolerance and inclusion.
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Post by munkholt on May 18, 2007 18:26:16 GMT
Ok, good, so Swedenborg is out. I'm happy.
People want to argue that Christians can't be tolerant, I think I'll just let that stand for itself ...
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Post by penfold on May 19, 2007 12:02:22 GMT
This is a links section - not a discussion area, and as so rightly pointed out be munkholt, one of the core philosphy's of this forum is " due respect is to be shown to the various Grand Lodges and Masonic Bodies in existance"
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Post by penfold on May 19, 2007 13:16:50 GMT
To further emphasise the points made by munkholt and holming:
History of the Order Freemasonry was brought to Sweden by Count Axel Wrede-Sparre, a Cavalry Officer who during service in France had become a Freemason. After returning to Sweden he brought together some friends who like himself had been made Freemasons abroad. In 1735, he inititated and passed his brother-in-law Count Carl Gustaf Tessin in Stockholm. Most of the Brethren joining Wrede-Sparre’s Lodge belonged to the higher nobility. The meetings seem to have ceased at the end of the 1740s. At the beginning of the 1750s there were quite a large number of Freemasons in Sweden who had been initiated by Wrede-Sparre or abroad. Count Knut Posse established the Lodge St Jean Auxiliaire (John the Baptist) in 1752. Wrede-Sparre and most of the Brethren of his Lodge joined the Lodge St Jean and Wrede-Sparre handed over his rituals and other documents to the new Lodge. The Lodge St Jean was called ”Mother-Lodge of Sweden” and considered itself entitled to issue warrants to other Lodges in the country and in Finland, which was a part of Sweden at that time. Count Carl Fredrik Scheffer who had been made a Freemason in Paris in 1737, was elected National Grand Master in 1753. During the 1750s, the Lodges opened their doors to members of other classes of society than the nobility. In 1756, Carl Fredrik Eckleff together with six Brethren formed the Scottish Lodge L’Innocente in Stockholm, working in so called Scottish St Andrew´s degrees. The next step in the development of Swedish Freemasonry was taken by Eckleff in 1759, when he established a Grand Chapter in Stockholm. Eckleff who was an employee of the Swedish Foreign Office, held a foreign patent authorizing him to form Lodges. It has not been possible to ascertain the date and place of origin of the patent and of the rituals. The Grand Lodge of Sweden was established in 1760. The Swedish Rite Eckleff moulded a Freemasonry system on a Christian basis. The moral philosophy of the Swedish Rite was further developed by Duke Carl, later King Carl XIII, who succeeded to Eckleff as the Swedish Masonic leader. By two major ritual revisions in 1780 and 1800 he created a logical Masonic system with ten degrees. The Rite is truly progressive and continuous. Each degree leads to the next and each sums up the contents of the preceding degrees. The system is grouped into three divisions as follows:
St John’s degrees (Craft): I Apprentice II Fellow Craft III Master Mason
St Andrew’s (Scottish) degrees: IV-V Apprentice-Companion of St Andrew VI Master of St Andrew
Chapter degrees VII Very Illustrious Brother VIII Most Illustrious Brother IX Enlightened Brother X Very Enlightened Brother
On top of the system is Most Enlightened Brother, Knight Commander of the Red Cross. R&K
In 1811, King Carl established the Royal Order of King Carl XIII. It is a civil order, still conferred by the King, only to Freemasons holding the R&K with the number limited to 33. It is, however, not a Masonic degree. Progression from one degree to the next is no easy matter and is far from automatic. A Brother has to be regular in attendance and to give proof of his knowledge of Freemasonry. All of the Grand Masters belonged to the Royal House from 1774 up to 1997, when Prince Bertil, Grand Master since 1973, died. King Carl XVI Gustaf is the High Protector of the Swedish Order of Freemasons. Grand Master since 2001 is Professor Anders Fahlman. Bååt’s palace in Stockholm, an impressive building from 1666 and carefully extended in 1874–77, functions as the Masonic Temple of the Swedish Order of Freemasons. Present organization At present there are 43 Craft Lodges, 23 Lodges working the St Andrew’s degrees, one Steward Lodge, seven Chapters and one Lodge of Research in Sweden. There are 63 Fraternal Societies (nearest Lodges of Instruction), usually at smaller towns. In Finland there are seven Lodges working the Craft degrees and two Fraternal Societies under the Swedish Order of Freemasons. There is also two Lodges working the St Andrew’s degrees, one Steward Lodge and one Grand Chapter in Helsinki. There are about 14 200 Freemasons in Sweden and about 1 000 in Finland under the Swedish Order of Freemasons. As Lodges are few in number, there are usually quite a number of members in a Swedish Lodge. Only those of Christian faith are admitted. The Worshipful Master of a Lodge is usually appointed for a period of six years. However, a compulsory retirement age of 75 is strictly enforced for all office bearers. The Swedish Rite is worked in Sweden, Finland, Norway, Denmark and Iceland. It is also, in a German variant, practiced in Grosse Landesloge der Freimaurer von Deutschland.
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