Paddy
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palmam qui meruit ferat
Posts: 51
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Post by Paddy on Jan 25, 2005 5:10:29 GMT
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Post by leonardo on Jan 25, 2005 14:39:25 GMT
Extremely interesting link.
Personally I have a great enthusiasm for the the Cathars. A most interesting group of people and religion For many years I've found that this "breakaway religious group " were unnecessarily persecuted by the then Catholic Church and its much dreaded inquisition.
A few years ago my good wife and I took advantage of the fact that we were in the South of France and went to see many of the Cathar castles and strongholds spread throughout the area. These are based primarily in the stunningly beautiful Languedoc region, an area I have every intention of returning to one day, perhaps even this summer!
Anyway I digress.
The link does certainly show the possibility of a connection between the Cathars and Kabbalah. Jewish settlers at the time certainly did live within the region and I do not believe that it is too unlikely they would have intermingled with those of the Cathar faith.
The book: Tallisman, if memory serves me correctly, goes into this at some length.
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ruffashlar
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Lodge Milncroft No. 1515 (GLoS), Govanhill Royal Arch Chapter 523 (S.G.R.A.C.S.)
Posts: 2,184
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Post by ruffashlar on Jan 26, 2005 1:16:47 GMT
"Opponents to the theory of a solid connection of the Kabbalists and Cathars in twelfth century France might say that there is a lack of hard evidence for making such conclusions"
It's almost redundant of me to draw attention to this passage, but quite necessary. Frankly, I don't think it's the least bit likely that Jews living in the Languedoc would mingle with the Cathars. Jews as an ethnic and religious group have historically demonstrated an ability to pass through a host culture virtually intact, thanks to elaborate proscriptions governing every aspect of life.
The Cathars would most likely have presented to orthodox Jewry as simply one more Christian sect, indistinguishable from the one they had recently supplanted, with all their immodesty, uncleanliness and sudden, irrational outbursts of violence toward minorities.
We know little about the Cathars for certain, nor to what extent their persecutors and eventual slaughterers manufactured evidence against them. Probably none of it is true, but being products of their times and circumstances, Languedoc Jews might have been quite as ready to believe black propaganda about the Cathars as Christians generally did about the Jews in their midst. The slightest whiff of sexual irregularities would turn devout Jews right off, and they would have refused to associate with them.
The one possible exception would have been had the Cathar period seen a time of the free exchange of ideas. We would expect a university to be founded, or some evidence of mercantile prosperity; for where there is commerce, there is navigation, which necessitates the consultation of people who have invested in knowledge. This the Jews had done as a direct result of their religious culture, and owing to the precarious state of their fortunes in a very fickle and bigoted Europe, knowledge was one very transferable commodity. The need for skilled astronomers, cartographers, linguists, mathematicians, geometers and business managers made the highly educated Jewish population in any region absolutely indispensable throughout the Medieval period and long after.
However, we don't see that in the Languedoc. That requires and produces money, not religion. Religion is the commerce of the poor: observe the proliferation of Islamic fundamentalist movements in recent years throughout the Third World. They console the disenfranchised population, giving them democratised, denationalised popular religion to complement their greivance against the official, State-sanctioned version.
This consoling function is probably why the supreme rite of the Cathars was called the Consolamentum, to repay the faithful their privations of piety.
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Post by hollandr on Jan 28, 2005 9:22:47 GMT
Ruffashlar
I seem to recall several books referring to a jewish kingdom in that part of France.
I expect Holy Blood Holy Grail has some details.
Jewish bloodlines go everywhere.
Cheers
Russell
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Post by Thegnostic on Jan 28, 2005 18:34:56 GMT
All,
The Cathers Ideals go back to the grand confusion of many earlier heretical sects, including the Marcionits, Borborites, Bardaisans and Messalians.
Whilst I cannot see evidence that Kabala is linked to the Cathars you have to bear in mind that this part of the Lanquedoc region in the 12 century was more or less the modern Alexandria. Gersholem Scholem states that the "Sefer ha Bahir" (book of light) from this period is clearly "Gnostic Kabbalism" as well as the most significant extant documnet of medievil Jewish mysticism and symbolism.
Gnostic
"For you are from it - and to it you must return"
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Post by leonardo on Mar 18, 2005 18:03:35 GMT
Whilst I cannot see evidence that Kabala is linked to the Cathars you have to bear in mind that this part of the Lanquedoc region in the 12 century was more or less the modern Alexandria. Interesting remarks. I've been to the Lanquedoc area and it is a wonderful place. I'm not French but everytime I visit the reagion I feel as though I've "come home."
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Post by Yoki on Jul 30, 2005 0:18:40 GMT
Leonardo this is the sort of feelings a reincarnationist would point to and consider as a indicator of a pervious life, but I suspect this thought has passed through your mind. Incidentally a belief in reincarnation was a element of the Cathar religion.
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ruffashlar
Member
Lodge Milncroft No. 1515 (GLoS), Govanhill Royal Arch Chapter 523 (S.G.R.A.C.S.)
Posts: 2,184
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Post by ruffashlar on Jul 31, 2005 0:42:42 GMT
But one of the very few things we know about the Cathars is the meaning of their name: from katharoi, the Purified, which some have pointed out suggests an elect of persons who have passed through a rite of purification, a katharsis.
Given that they are believed to have abjured sexuality for reasons not unlike those cited by late Gnosticism, it is worthy of speculation that these people either resisted the attractions of the flesh by practising celibacy; subverted the aims of Nature by resorting to non-procreative sex; transcended it by asceticism or satiety; or threw the burden aside literally by undergoing drastic and irrevocable surgery after the manner of Origen.
And having been Purified in this life, they certainly wouldn't be expecting ever to endure what was for them the hell of being Reincarnated.
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Post by hollandr on Jul 31, 2005 2:14:53 GMT
Ruff
I think you might find that there were/are grades amongst the Cathars. You may like to consider The Great Heresy by Arthur Guirdam. He gives a lot of detail of the practices of the parfaits as compared with the laity.
I could make a similar comment about the variations in Jewish practices. Perhaps the fragmentation of christian and masonic groups is following a jewish tradition. Hence it is hard to generalise upon practices and attitudes.
Of course there a plenty of books that discuss the jewish communities of Languedoc and their relationships with ruling families.
As to reincarnation. Years ago I looked to escape reincarnation. But later it was impressed upon me that I was here to work and should not leave as soon as I was able.
I dare say that that is not an original illumination. So perhaps parfaits had outer teachings that said to the laity "purify yourselves so that you can escape" while inner teachings said "just because you can is not sufficient reason to leave your brethren behind"
Cheers
Russell
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Post by Yoki on Jul 31, 2005 21:38:33 GMT
My presenting reincarnation as a belief of the Cathars was based on what I have read in Arthur Guirdam books.A very quick look on Google showed others held the same view, as the quote below illustrates and as Russell wrote there was different grades. [glow=red,2,300]The Elect led ascetic lives: they spent their time meditating and teaching when not earning their living. They observed strict rules prohibiting lying and swearing. They did not eat meat, nor engage in sex, nor war, and looked forward to their release from the cycle of reincarnation. There was a distinction between the inner Elect and the mass of believers.[/glow]The point of reincarnation is that one-day we will evolve into a being that no longer needs to return to the school that is earth. The living of a Purified life would be expected to hurry this process along, but I would argue that all aspects of life need to be experienced. Younger souls have no alternative but to reincarnate, as they grow choices are given as to were and how, at a higher level of growth there is no need to return to the physical. Then as Russell wrote there is the question of service to humankind, an example of this is offcourse Jesus.In the bible he is quoted as saying (quote may not be word perfect) [glow=red,2,300]As I am now so will you one day be.[/glow] Which to my mind illustrates what I have been writing.
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Post by vadro on Dec 29, 2005 13:18:53 GMT
Ruffashlar I expect Holy Blood Holy Grail has some details. . Cheers Russell This is correct, good info about the Cathars on that book. S&F
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ruffashlar
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Lodge Milncroft No. 1515 (GLoS), Govanhill Royal Arch Chapter 523 (S.G.R.A.C.S.)
Posts: 2,184
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Post by ruffashlar on Jan 22, 2006 13:47:16 GMT
Well, info, certainly.
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Post by leonardo on Jul 31, 2007 18:34:03 GMT
I had forgotten about this thread and I'm so glad to have rediscovered it.
A wonderful subject.
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Post by penfold on Aug 1, 2007 6:48:49 GMT
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Aug 1, 2007 7:02:16 GMT
Thanks for pointing out that intriguing article Bro. Penfold and congratulations to Bro. Bill. I highly recommend it.
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Post by leonardo on Aug 1, 2007 8:10:46 GMT
Thanks from me too, young penfold. A wonderful and timely article.
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