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Post by gipsyrose on Apr 30, 2007 13:51:43 GMT
I have noticed that a number of people who post here and on other masonic fora have an interest in Kabbalah/Qabalah. Often this discussion has been well beyond me, using terms I have been completely unfamiliar with, so I have started reading "Kabbalah for Dummies".
I am curious as whether those of you who are familiar with KabbalahQabalah were drawn to Kabblah/Qabalah through your involvement in Masonry, or if this interest/knowledge preceded it, or whether it developed separately from your Masonry and then began to overlap?
And finally, do you find Kabbalah/Qabalah helpful? If so why? And what have you found has been most useful in understanding and incorporating the wisdom of this mystical tradition into your daily life?
gipsyrose
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imakegarb
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Post by imakegarb on Apr 30, 2007 15:22:53 GMT
;D
Kabbalah was sort of a poke-at-it-once-in-a-while study for me until I wandered onto the path I'm now on. There's definate overlap between it and my Masonry, yup, but I also see overlap between Masonry and mythology/symbology/my job/my relationships/etc.
Life, it seems, is one of those things you have to jump into. No place to begin, no place to end. Just cannonball into the middle and come to understand it as best you can. Kabbalah is wildly helpful for this. Masonry provides me with the discipline to see it.
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Post by matt on Apr 30, 2007 18:04:54 GMT
I would say that my interest in qabalah lead me to masonry. I had read that masonry was a system of ceremonial magic based around qabalah, and I was eager to learn. I was first introduced to qabalah through my best friend who could not explain it well, but what little he said intrigued me. So I began to look more into it and study it. I bought books that were way over my head and found out that many of them were written by masons or students of masons. I was already familiar with masonry to some extent, but once I found out that it was based on qabalah I was knocking on the door.
As far as changes its made in my life, I dont even really know where to begin. I'm a completely different person right now than I was just 3 years ago. For 5 years before I began studying up on qabalah I was an anti-mason fundamentalist conspiracy theorist. It's really funny when I think back to my ideas on the world at that time.
Daily practical work based on the qabalah brings you in tune with specific forces both within and without. Not only do you learn more about yourself and change, but you are able to control these forces in your environment as well.
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Post by hollandr on Apr 30, 2007 22:43:53 GMT
the Tree of Life often applies to countries as well as humans
Cheers
Russell
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Post by maat on May 1, 2007 0:39:51 GMT
I whole heartedly agree with Matt that "that masonry was(is) a system of ceremonial magic based around qabalah" ... and it is truly wonderful! The more discoveries I make in working the Qabalah the more I understand the minds and intent of those unknowns who gave us Masonry. I think you will find Dion Fortune's book "The Mystical Qabalah" an excellent investment. This particular book is perfect for the beginner... it is strait forward and relatively simple explanation on what can prove to be a lifetime knowledge path. www.powells.com/biblio/1578631505?&PID=30556Qabalah and Masonry were separate for me to start with Masonry dominating but now there is the perfect overlap and what was hidden before is now becoming apparent. It is very exciting. Maat PS check our the interactive Tree of Life posted previously in this section... it is BOTA's interpretation, but will give you a bit of a clue and a bit of fun also.
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jmd
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Post by jmd on May 1, 2007 3:14:42 GMT
My interest in Kabbalah predates my entry into Freemasonry, but probably develops at the same time as my interest in latter - but each for different 'reasons'.
Personally, I prefer to base my Kabalistic interests in the solid works of Moshe Idel and A. Kaplan (with historical background in the works of G. Scholem). To my view, they provide a sound basis from which to further develop my own Kabalistic interest without assuming the overlays expounded by the Golden Dawn and its various offshoots.
Even within the broad Masonic circles, the Kabalistic references are such as to make those of the GD, to my view at least, rather narrow (if not incorrect). For example, specific references are made to the Kabalah in the SRIA (but of course not only the SRIA).
One can also of course be lead into Kabalistic considerations when faced with the depiction of the Tetragrammaton on most standard (Harris) 2nd degree tracing boards, yet, I would suggest, this was very likely NOT the intent, but rather and simply the name as presented in the Torah (the first five books of the Old Testament) in Hebrew. The same can be found on numerous mediaeval churches and Cathedrals referencing precisely the name of God.
Interest in the depiction of the Tree of Life is in some ways distinct to an interest in the Kabalah: the Tree of Life depiction is a rather late-ish development, with numerous varients.
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Post by maat on May 1, 2007 4:01:46 GMT
the Tree of Life often applies to countries as well as humans Cheers Russell Hi Russell Can you give some examples of what you mean please Maat
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Post by maat on May 1, 2007 4:05:32 GMT
jmd - are you familiar with Kabbalah for Dummies, which gypsierose is reading .... is it a good start for total beginners? One can hope so. I should also imagine that the very best books on the subject might be a tad over the top for total beginners. I know the wrong book for my mind retarded my interest in the subject by some 10+ years.
Maat
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Post by hollandr on May 1, 2007 5:09:50 GMT
>Can you give some examples of what you mean please
I was wondering if anyone was paying attention ;-)
The Tree of Life fits on to the human body indicating the anchoring points of various sephira.
It is possible to do the same for various land masses.
I first saw a Tree laid on the island of Iona. All the places of current human habitation are around the lower sephira and the places used by St Columba are on the higher sephira. This may indicate that most humans relate more easily to the energies of lower sephira.
That certainly seems to be the case in Australia where most of the population centres are on the lower sephira of 2 Trees. You can just about see the Trees in the shape of the continent
Cheers
Russell
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Post by a on May 1, 2007 6:47:35 GMT
This may indicate that most humans relate more easily to the energies of lower sephira. I wonder if this could simply be a reflection of the powerful fragmentation forces in our world? When people find the courage to open up you find that many want a better life, but are so controlled by fear and fragmentation that it may just be easier to "fit in" to the powerful fragmentation forces. But now that our world is beginning to come together a little better, as witnessed by UN, EU, the Corporations suddenly becoming eco-friendly (money motivated I assume), the French based Masonic frats working better together, and even UGLEs current period of rapid change where, as one example, as Penfold posted recently, the higher/side orders now being formally recognised and the encouragement of members back into Craft lodges. Etc, etc. Add to this the sheer number of old souls incarnating (certainly in my neck of the woods), perhaps to guide and support the way as they mature into societal leaders, and you can't help but feel that there is real momentum for the human race to take a positive step forward in its growth, up the tree. The only real question is - will the inner courage be found for nations, fraternal organisations, and leaders, to face themselves, and then help their charges take that step? Or will the cycle repeat itself again?
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Post by maat on May 1, 2007 7:04:01 GMT
We are only responsible to make sure we take the right steps, hopefully like the flu it is catching Really nice to see you posting again Stewart! Russell - there is a diagram in this link - is that what you mean. For other newbies to Q/C/K please click to enlarge the RH diagram and see just Wisdom, Strength and Beauty lie. www.workofthechariot.com/TextFiles/Teachings-CompositionTree.htmlI just happened upon this site - I am not familiar with the organisation but it seems to contain a wealth of information for the seeker. Are you familiar with them jmd? Maat
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jmd
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Post by jmd on May 1, 2007 9:22:43 GMT
I have not read Kabbalah for Dummies, but have heard mainly positive comments about the book. In my view, if it encourages further reading and research, then it is probably worthwhile (unless it makes factually incorrect claims). With regards to the WorkOfTheChariot site, I'm basing my comment more on a friend who follows more carefully their work then I have rather more cursorily browsed at various times: it seems well grounded and sincere, with far more, from what seems to me the case, substance than most material emerging from GD-oriented authors. There is also, as another introductory book that is deceptively simple (without losing its spiritual depth despite its apparent psychological overt layering), Rabbi Laibl Wolf's Practical Kabbalah.
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Post by hollandr on May 1, 2007 9:49:55 GMT
> there is a diagram in this link - is that what you mean
Well that is a standard mapping of the tree on to the human and valid in its own right
But I suspect there are another formulation more appropriate to the initiate when linking the heavens to the earth
Cheers
Russell
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Tamrin
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Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on May 1, 2007 12:04:45 GMT
That certainly seems to be the case in Australia where most of the population centres are on the lower sephira of 2 Trees. You can just about see the Trees in the shape of the continent Is this what you mean? If so, I suggest this is drawing a very long bow. That said, it may 'fit' better from a 'south is up' perspective or with a combination of one 'up' / one 'down.'
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Post by hollandr on May 1, 2007 12:20:13 GMT
>Is this what you mean?
It might be a bit more subtle, But the nature of the famous places in Australia should be a clue
Cheers
Russell
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Post by gipsyrose on May 1, 2007 14:10:15 GMT
Thank you for your replies, most helpful. I have been finding 'Kabbalah for Dummies" useful for orienting me, and would value someelse's more experienced perspective on this book. There is certainly no discussion or mention of Masonry in it.
I read Dion Fortune's novels years ago and loved them, and have often considered getting her book on Qabalah, so thank you for your suggestion Maat and your views on it JMD.
A book that I am feeling drawn to that is suggested in the Dummies book is The Thirteen Petalled Rose by Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz. Does anyone know it?
I am still interested in how people have used their understanding of Kabbalah/Qabalah in their daily, weekly, yearly life. For instance does anyone practice having a day of "stillness" each week without the normal work-oriented goals?
I am still not yet in tune with the tree of life stuff, though find myself wondering how it relates with chakras and masonry degrees. Like is the lowest circle (Malchut) related to the fifth chakra and our first degree?
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on May 1, 2007 14:47:14 GMT
>Is this what you mean? It might be a bit more subtle, But the nature of the famous places in Australia should be a clue Cheers Russell Apart from a few 'famous places,' such as Uluru, that sounds like a subjectively selective approach. The conventional 'shape' of the 'trees' is due, as you pointed out in Rely #8, "The Tree of Life fits on to the human body indicating the anchoring points of various sephira." I suggest any 'subtle' coincidental correspondence could, if warranted, more appropriately be said to correspond to bodies rather than to 'trees.' Personally, any identification of the commonly depicted geometric structure of such 'trees,' contrived for such specific purposes, with any natural formation is not one I would choose to draw. Perhaps of greater interest would be the identification of various sites indicating some overall, underlying global structure. I once heard a convincing talk supporting the possibility of a dodecahedron structure, as mentioned by Plato.
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Post by hollandr on May 1, 2007 22:24:35 GMT
> that sounds like a subjectively selective approach.
Philip
It may be that having developed an hypothesis (fitted the trees to Oz) then one has to test the fit by experiment. It seems to me that only when the speculative generates the operational that is it of much use
By the way I used to live on a cross-over of the duodecahedron and the icosahedron. It was a powerful place both in planetary and systemic energetics
And on two occasions I saw physically the duodecahedron of the Sun
Cheers
Russell
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Post by maat on May 1, 2007 23:43:13 GMT
I am still not yet in tune with the tree of life stuff, though find myself wondering how it relates with chakras and masonry degrees. Like is the lowest circle (Malchut) related to the fifth chakra and our first degree? Here is a really good site for you to pour over gypsyrose..... and meditate upon. www.annikalangle.se/chakras.htmMalchut/Malkuth is usually referred to as the base chakra and numbered 1. It does relate to our first degree and if you go into this site you will see why. The Tree of Life references are towards the bottom but you should read the complete page for cross referencing purposes. Some of the keys you might like to note are.. Sushumna -> Middle Pillar -> Kundalini -> ascends in a winding manner Element -> Earth Number -> Four Form -> Square Sacrament -> Baptism, Initiation Body Parts -> Spine, legs, feet (which feature in the first) Key Terms - getting a solid foundation in the first THREE chakras to enable a rise in consciousness ... we must raise ourselves up to meet the Lord as they say. "This is the last Sefira of the divine emanations and it is placed at the bottom of the Tree. The divine energy is here "specialized and concretized". This is " the Mother of all living things", the sphere of the concrete, the realm of the physical world. This is the culmination of the emanation process. Here "God is made visible by His works". A widow no doubt! Maat
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on May 2, 2007 2:05:10 GMT
Here I choose to bow out rather than get bogged down, as I suspect we may irreconcilably differ as to the intended subject and the actual subject of any such experiment. In the talk I referred to earlier (by Allan Hughes of Scotland), the significant places he identified were on just such points. This Dodecahedron-Icosahedron Compound site may help readers visualise the conjunction. This Plato's Molecule site may also be of interest.
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