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Post by Antonius on Dec 29, 2007 12:34:16 GMT
I recall years ago in meditation feeling called upon to deliver mentally a lecture on the inner nature of machines. At the end of the lecture I quite clearly heard a metallic voice saying: thankyou. i just realised what this reminds me of. when i was 4 or so i had a vision of a women. i was in my room engaging in the typical 4yo philosophy and at one point i became so immersed in my inner dialog that i forget the world around me. when i had reached a conclusion of some sort and had a little eureka moment, (hey my little finger fits my nostril exactly or something like that) i suddenly saw on the end of my bed a blond woman who responded to me saying 'yes' as if to indicate that she had been listening and had gotten the messege. was it a vision, or did my uninhibited 4yo mind manifest some kind of archetype into a visible form? also it reminds me of an aspect of deep shamanic states as a result of taking mushrooms. mushrooms are unique in that if you are hallucinating you can speak up and get a response. it will even change the experiance for you if you simply ask for it. you can ask it to show you specific things and it will do so. come to think of it, one of the main things about DMT, the chemical we have in our own bodies is that in the deepest states it can offer one experiances a world in wich strange creatures use their voice to 'sing' physical objects into being, and encourage you to do the same. also allmost all psychedelics at times enduce a state in wich sensory input is changed so that sounds are now seen as visual things instead of herd. all of these things seem to suggest something about the act of description as an act of creation...
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Post by hollandr on Dec 29, 2007 19:31:35 GMT
>what if description is in fact an act of creation?
I recall a friend who was quite clear that Aluminium (English name) had slightly different properties to Aluminum (US name) even though it is the same physical substance because the naming changes it
And I used to work with metals close to their limits of strength and I soon learned that if I intended the metal would not break then it would not.
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Post by willied77 on Jan 1, 2008 2:26:14 GMT
Meditation is the key to unlocking your hidden faults.....
From there you can smooth off the rest of your 'roughness'....
But done wrongly, or even not grounding properly, can set off a chain reaction that your brain or mind cannot cope with, and I speak from experience there!!
My advice, if your are serious about Meditation, seek out someone who is either a martial artist or a buddhist.
They know the true secrets of 'self-exploration'
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Post by 2 BOWL CAIN on Jan 3, 2008 14:09:47 GMT
You have found that the Individual may act on the Universal, and that the result of this action and interaction is cause and effect. Thought, therefore, is the cause, and the experiences with which you meet in life are the effect. Eliminate, therefore, any possible tendency to complain of conditions as they have been, or as they are, because it rests with you to change them and make them what you would like them to be. Direct your effort to a realization of the mental resources, always at your command, from which all real and lasting power comes. Persist in this practice until you come to a realization of the fact that there can be no failure in the accomplishment of any proper object in life if you but understand your power and persist in your object, because the mind-forces are ever ready to lend themselves to a purposeful will, in the effort to crystallize thought and desire into actions, events and conditions. Whereas in the beginning of each function of life and each action is the result of conscious thought, the habitual actions become automatic and the thought that controls them passes into the realm of the subconscious; yet it is just as intelligent as before. It is necessary that it become automatic, or subconscious, in order that the self-conscious mind may attend to other things. The new actions will, however, in their turn, be come habitual, then automatic, then subconscious in order that the mind again may be freed from this detail and advanced to still other activities. When you realize this, you will have found a source of power which will enable you to take care of any situation in life which may develop.
Charles Haanel The Master Key System
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Post by matt on Jan 3, 2008 20:05:41 GMT
Unconscious thought does put into motion multiple effects, as you have suggested. However, I'd like to add that this can be a negative thing as well as a positive thing. It is important that we become aware of what things are influencing us unconsciously that way we can determine whether we want to continue along that road or not.
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Post by hollandr on Jan 3, 2008 20:58:08 GMT
>Unconscious thought does put into motion multiple effects,............. this can be a negative thing as well as a positive thing.
And if the thought is unconscious, how do we know what intelligence is thinking it?
How many thinkers exist in one person's unconscious?
Are they all on the same side?
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Post by Antonius on Jan 3, 2008 23:28:52 GMT
i would say not, and that we experiance such inner conflicts in such a way that it inspired the antrapamorpasis of this situation in the little angel and evil on a person's shoulders we see in movies etc.
if every thought is a thinker then the competition of ideas in your conciouss and subconciouss compete with eachother, wich may in some altered states of conciousness be experianced as entities fighting eachother and things like that. maybe the truth is so far removed from anything we can percieve, that all the various ways in wich we can percieve these things, material and non material alike are equally true and untrue.
i think the masonic loge could be seen as a model of this. the situation in a loge is representative of the situation in our heads, because whatever it is originaly derrived from, like all things we call 'truth' are built by the same basic rules and have the same internal structure.
i would suggest that you may apply the masonic loge as a model for the situation of thoughts and thinkers with as high accuracy as any other model available.
also i would say that looking at these teachings, it may not be rigidly defined. meaning that like one would find different situations in the temple depending on when he walks into it, so the cast of thinkers in our head changes from moment to moment. at the same time there are certain things like the WM and the alter etc that are allways present. i would say that this indicates that our heads contain both mortal and immortal thinkers. im not in position to take that any further, but i bet you all can. and i would say that if it makes sense to you and it feels right, there is nothing against saying it is 'true'
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Post by hollandr on Jan 3, 2008 23:51:10 GMT
>our heads contain both mortal and immortal thinkers
I agree. Hence the title of the original thread
I sometimes wonder if some of the thinkers inside the head tend to be argumentative rather than seek truth.
Would that be a means of distinguishing "immortal" from "mortal" thinkers?
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Post by wayseer on Jan 4, 2008 2:59:05 GMT
Would that be a means of distinguishing "immortal" from "mortal" thinkers?
The 1st D invites us to build the Temple while the 3rd suggests that any such attempt is futile.
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staffs
Administrator
Staffs
Posts: 3,295
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Post by staffs on Jan 4, 2008 6:39:26 GMT
Would that be a means of distinguishing "immortal" from "mortal" thinkers?The 1st D invites us to build the Temple while the 3rd suggests that any such attempt is futile. Or does the third also teach us that the Temple will never be finished and that it will completion is never finished ?
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Post by wayseer on Jan 4, 2008 7:19:32 GMT
Or does the third also teach us that the Temple will never be finished and that it will completion is never finished ?
I concurr that such may well be the usual understanding - that we do not reach perfection until a member of the Temple not built by hands.
I follow on from Ecclesiates - that it is but vainty to think that what we set out to built is anywhere good enough.
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Post by matt on Jan 4, 2008 7:22:06 GMT
Would that be a means of distinguishing "immortal" from "mortal" thinkers?The 1st D invites us to build the Temple while the 3rd suggests that any such attempt is futile. Or does the third also teach us that the Temple will never be finished and that it will completion is never finished ? Not only that, our ideals must be slain in order to make room for more perfect ones. Russell wrote: We can only know if we explore the unconscious, thereby becoming more aware of ourself. Awareness and Acceptance is the Great Work.
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Post by wayseer on Jan 4, 2008 9:37:15 GMT
Not only that, our ideals must be slain in order to make room for more perfect ones.
I think you have missed my point - the idea that such ideals can be 'slain' is also vanity.
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Tamrin
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Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Jan 4, 2008 9:50:42 GMT
Not only that, our ideals must be slain in order to make room for more perfect ones.
I think you have missed my point - the idea that such ideals can be 'slain' is also vanity. Well said.
May we each do what we can now, where we are and with what we already have.
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Post by hollandr on Jan 4, 2008 9:59:15 GMT
> it is but vainty to think that what we set out to built is anywhere good enough.
I would hope that in cooperation with other realms of existence (e.g. the Temple in the Heavens) the human race might eventually contribute some worthy stones to the Divine Plan (as portrayed in the Mark ritual)
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Post by Antonius on Jan 4, 2008 12:54:42 GMT
i think ideas such as 'good enuff' are completely dependant on perception, and without ego are completely meaningless.
it doesnt matter how good or bad, just that today we are better then we were yesterday. elightenment is not a desitination, it is a path. and to any1 walking that path nothing could be more horrible then reaching such a destination, for we would no longer be travelers. can you imagine having nowhere to go? (perhaps this explains why we were created in the first place)
nevertheless i dont like to trivialise the human endeavor, and i would say that whatever house we may build, how ever well or poorly we build it, it is the most important one.
as for how to recognise the thinkers, we do that by studying our esoteric tradtions. i dont know how masonry works, but all the stuff i lern from BOTA is verymuch related to the internal and i consider my deck of tarot cards to be a complete model of conciousness. and from there i can extrapolate to the external.
we recognise the actors by comparing them to our esoteric traditions. for you elements in the temple, for me the symbols of tarot. in tarot the original self, the 'I AM' is represented by the card 'the fool'. in masonry as i understand it this is the all seeing eye, and perhaps TGAOTU. and with the emphasis om moralism and things like that, masonry seems to take the external approach. so you should do the opposite of what i do: take the symbolism of your craft and internalise it. consider what happens in the temple to be a symbolic representation of your internal universe, and compare your experiance of thinkers to what goes on in the temple.
as for mortal and immortal thinkers, we have some measure of controll of this situation, as we have some controll over our thoughts. you speak of recognising the thinkers, but another approach might be to simply start from scratch and create a more efficiant set of thinkers to do the job.
look at the symbolism of your craft and consider them to represent thought processes. then making logical sense of it by looking at how they relate to eachother construct with the symbols a model of an efficient process and then try to reconstruct that situation internaly.
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Post by matt on Jan 4, 2008 20:55:35 GMT
Not only that, our ideals must be slain in order to make room for more perfect ones.I think you have missed my point - the idea that such ideals can be 'slain' is also vanity. Any conceptual ideal that we are able to come up with is a myth, illusion, or mask. This is why the image, no matter how pleasurable it is to us, no matter how lofty an idea we once thought it was, must be killed. Hiram had to die because at the crossroads of our psychospiritual evolution we must be willing to sacrifice our old conceptions of the ideal "me" so that we may obtain a new awareness and acceptance of who we really are what we are becoming. The old ideal becomes a false idol that we must stop venerating. This ties right in to the temple never being completed. As we approach the completion we must be willing to destroy it (or allow it to be destroyed) in order to make it more perfect. If the temple were complete, there would be no reason for our (the builders) existence.
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Post by hollandr on Jan 4, 2008 23:45:25 GMT
It may be of use to consider the levels of existence (rungs on Jacob's ladder) on which concepts may exist.
For example, the mind of God (whatever that means) may contain some intent that is expressed as a Divine Idea on a lower plane
That Divine Idea may be detected by some of the advanced members of the human race and generated on the mental plane as an Ideal
The Ideal may be adopted by intellectual humans who generate a range of thoughts about it
Now those thoughts commonly are compilations of related and interrelated concepts and if the thought process is persisted in, there may be produced a thought form that has a relatively permanent existence beyond the mind that produced it.
This last stage is particularly subject to the vanities of the mind that generates it.
(I have not addressed the question of what intelligences are likely to share in the process)
Cheers
Russell
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Post by Antonius on Jan 5, 2008 0:11:19 GMT
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Post by hollandr on Jan 5, 2008 4:21:18 GMT
Well in that case the Divine Idea might be about natural and spiritual kingdoms unfolding to support planetary purpose
And one of the Ideals derived from that might be about stewardship of the nature kingdoms on Earth
And various mental constructs might be organised to express that Ideal. In this case the mental constructs include re-thinking the role of fungi in ecosystem and biological balance
Cheers
Russell
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