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Post by maat on Mar 24, 2008 22:57:20 GMT
In my professional opinion, if anyone is concerned that their thoughts are being inserted or stolen by others, they seriously need expert help. Re: the first bit... Newspaper articles, subliminal messaging, overly protective or agressive parents/partners/friends. Re: the second bit... never shared a thought with someone to hear it later come from that person as their own idea? Happens all the time. Take this forum for example ;D My thoughts and ideas are influenced from the outside, constantly. Some I am thankful for and others not. A tablespoon of reason and an ounce of commonsense seems to sort most problems out. Maat
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Post by hollandr on Mar 25, 2008 0:16:48 GMT
>My thoughts and ideas are influenced from the outside, constantly.
The key skill seems to me to be the ability to recognise the thoughts that are not one's own.
When we can recognise intruding thoughts we can evaluate them and consider whether or not to act
If we cannot recognise intruding thoughts then we are pawns in the game
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Mar 25, 2008 7:12:23 GMT
>Franz Hartmann, the chief of staff of the Austro-Hungarian army,
So not only was he successful in teaching practical occultism, he also was successful in realms observable by the profane Follow the punctuation: They were different people. By your reading, "Dirty Franz" would have also been: " ..., wealthy merchants in Vienna and Germany, and the affluent Munich industrialist Friedrich Wannieck..." >In my professional opinion, if anyone is concerned that their thoughts are being inserted or stolen by others, they seriously need expert help.
Quite so. But expert in what? The talking cure? Expert in Psychiatry: I doubt the " talking cure" would suffice in a case of major psychosis. At least you seem to acknowledge (e.g., "Quite so") this is something to "cure." If we cannot recognise intruding thoughts then we are pawns in the game Returning to the topic of the thread, "Are our thoughts really our own?" I am reminded of Descartes', "I think, therefore I am," with the emphasis on "I." It is MY thoughts which lead me beyond Descartes' position of radical doubt to the undeniable conclusion that "I" exist. While our thoughts and even our habits of thought have been influenced by parenting, schooling, advertising, peers, etc., a functional individual maintains robust psychological borders and self-discipline, they have a concept of their own identity and can distinguish it from that which is not themself, accepting responsibility and accountability for the thoughts they experience. They tend toward what has been called an internal "locus of control."
By contrast, many dysfunctional individuals have poorly developed psychological borders and little self-discipline, having difficulty accepting responsibility and accountability for their own thoughts, often thinking either that others are projecting thoughts into or are stealing thoughts from their heads. Those desperately dysfunctional individuals of this kind, who also experience auditory hallucinations, might not even think to ask, "Are our voices really our own?" but simply take for granted that they originate elsewhere, are out of their control and have a meaning independent of what ever rational critique they may apply to ideas they identify as their own, (e.g., I dreamt "X", thus I was told to accept "X", despite "X" being unreasonable).
Where one deliberately tries to turn-off and shut-down their psychological borders and uncritically open-up to other influences (as opposed to the possibility of some advanced, controlled and fully conscious disciplines for going beyond conventional "ring-pass-nots"), whether the afore mentioned, self-negating possibility is realistic or not, the intention is psychologically harmful.
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Post by hollandr on Mar 25, 2008 10:44:17 GMT
>Are our voices really our own?" but simply take for granted that they originate elsewhere, I suppose it might be equally inappropriate to assume that because thoughts are experienced internally that they are necessarily internal in origin Relevant technology was in the public domain in the 1950s. www.wireheading.com/delgado/brainchips.pdfI understand there has been much progress since then
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Mar 25, 2008 11:00:17 GMT
Are you suggesting that "brainchips" are commonplace? Of Delgardo's apparatus, we read: The stimoceiver could be used to stimulate emotions and control behavior. According to Delgado, "Radio Stimulation of different points in the amygdala and hippocampus in the four patients produced a variety of effects, including pleasant sensations, elation, deep, thoughtful concentration, odd feelings, super relaxation, colored visions, and other responses." Not surprising and no mention of "thoughts," as such. One would obtain similar results with drugs.
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Post by hollandr on Mar 25, 2008 22:43:44 GMT
As I indicated above technology has moved a long way since the 1950s and much is of military significance and therefore secret
"The Sydney Morning Herald on 21 March 1983 published an article by Dr Nassim Abd El-Aziz Neweigy, Assistant Professor in the Faculty of Agriculture, Moshtohor Tukh-Kalubia, Egypt. It stated: "Russian satellites, controlled by advanced computers, can send voices in one's own language interweaving into natural thoughts to the population of choice to form diffused artificial thought. The chemistry and electricity of the human brain can be manipulated by satellite and even suicide can be induced. Through ferocious anti-humanitarian means, the extremist groups are fabricated, the troubles and bloody disturbances are instigated by advanced tele-means via Russian satellites, in many countries in Asia, Africa, Europe and Latin America." "
The above technology has been reported as used in helicopters for localised application.
“Sources tell Newsweek that the FBI consulted Moscow experts on the possible use of a Soviet technique for beaming subliminal messages to Koresh. The technique uses inaudible transmissions that could have convinced Koresh he was hearing the voice of God inside his head” (Newsweek, February 7, 1994).
But while human interference in thought patterns is interesting I suspect that the interference from non-physical beings is much more widespread.
So that I agree with Franz Hartmann that very few humans either:
- control their thoughts or - can distinguish internal thoughts from external thoughts
Such humans are pawns in the game until through huge effort they learn to control feelings and thoughts and become players
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Mar 26, 2008 7:12:13 GMT
Certainly we should abandon any critical capacity and believe everything we read—NOT! Can you please provide your sources? From what I can find ( wacko example linked), Dr. Neweigy wrote in the article about the Global Positioning Satellite (GPS) system, with others picking up on the article to speculate on possible side effects and others taking that speculation as fact, intent and function!? Odd that an Egyptian agricultural scientist should be privy to what would be top secret information about Russian satellites somehow operating within the American GPS system!? Serious concern about thoughts being inserted or stolen by others is the quintessential tin-foil hat delusion and is symptomatic of a major psychosis.
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Post by hollandr on Mar 26, 2008 7:36:01 GMT
To return to the thread: Is the human self-image the core of the personality?
If not, what is?
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Mar 26, 2008 7:44:02 GMT
I like Max's response: Our consciousness is the core of our being. Our personality is the mechanism that we develop in order to interact with others.
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Post by maat on Mar 26, 2008 21:44:11 GMT
Is the human self-image the core of the personality? The initial question can have only one answer. No. As any parent will tell you, each baby has it's own personality. We are also told by the scientists that the babe does not possess the faculties for self imaging at this stage of their lives, however they do have personalities. I think the person-ality is a natural emanation of the consciousness's (plural) of the person. (See Jung etc for further explanations on the plural consciousness'sssss..) I also think that we bring the 'essence' of previous life experiences with us when we are born anew. This would explain 'natural' talents and extraordinary personality traits sometimes exhibited by the very young .. not to mention the many cases reported of past life memories in children. Maat PS - One personal experience of this... my nephew at age 3 was obsessed with dressing as an army general (NOT and ordinary soldier), he would march his imaginary army over the hills and issue commands with extraordinary language skills which exceeded that of his family environment. I asked him once why he was sending his troops in a certain direction... he mentioned places in Europe and mentioned executing captives, which quite shocked me I might say. He saw my discomfort and then gave me a detailed reason of why this must be so. And his reason made sense. Now I ask you.... at three years of age This nephew, as an adult, is the gentlest, quietest and most loving of men. He took a major nurturing role in raising his children and would be the least likely soldier material ever. Interesting.
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Post by lauderdale on Mar 26, 2008 22:03:45 GMT
Now Maat this is of interest. I was born in 1953 , 8 years after the end of WW2 , and since early childhood, long before I had any knowledge of the War, Nazis, Hitler or anything else I found something both strangely attractive and very familiar when newsreels and films were shown about Germany and that war and the run up to it from Jan 1933. Now I have never been to Germany in my life but often I will see a film or a documentary and think "I know him or her, or I have been there before" . Now I am not speaking about the well known Nazis such as Hitler, Goering, Himmler, Heydrich etc, but ordinary German Soldiers and Civilians, and not in well known places in Berlin, Munich, Nürnberg etc but small towns and cities in Germany. Even as a kid playing at soldiers I would opt to be the Germans and not the Brits.
Now is this an example of some previous life in Hitler's Germany? As a believer in reincarnation I could accept that.
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Post by sid on Mar 26, 2008 22:22:26 GMT
Greetings, Is the human self-image the core of the personality? The initial question can have only one answer. No. As any parent will tell you, each baby has it's own personality. We are also told by the scientists that the babe does not possess the faculties for self imaging at this stage of their lives, however they do have personalities. I think the person-ality is a natural emanation of the consciousness's (plural) of the person. (See Jung etc for further explanations on the plural consciousness'sssss..) I also think that we bring the 'essence' of previous life experiences with us when we are born anew. This would explain 'natural' talents and extraordinary personality traits sometimes exhibited by the very young .. not to mention the many cases reported of past life memories in children. Maat PS - One personal experience of this... my nephew at age 3 was obsessed with dressing as an army general (NOT and ordinary soldier), he would march his imaginary army over the hills and issue commands with extraordinary language skills which exceeded that of his family environment. I asked him once why he was sending his troops in a certain direction... he mentioned places in Europe and mentioned executing captives, which quite shocked me I might say. He saw my discomfort and then gave me a detailed reason of why this must be so. And his reason made sense. Now I ask you.... at three years of age This nephew, as an adult, is the gentlest, quietest and most loving of men. He took a major nurturing role in raising his children and would be the least likely soldier material ever. Interesting. Acording to Rosicrucian Ontology, God breathed into the body of Man the Breath of Life and Man became a living Soul ... (Rosicrucian Creed)
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Post by maat on Mar 26, 2008 23:12:03 GMT
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Post by maat on Mar 26, 2008 23:24:03 GMT
Now Maat this is of interest. I was born in 1953 , 8 years after the end of WW2 , and since early childhood, long before I had any knowledge of the War, Nazis, Hitler or anything else I found something both strangely attractive and very familiar when newsreels and films were shown about Germany and that war and the run up to it from Jan 1933. Now I have never been to Germany in my life but often I will see a film or a documentary and think "I know him or her, or I have been there before" . Now I am not speaking about the well known Nazis such as Hitler, Goering, Himmler, Heydrich etc, but ordinary German Soldiers and Civilians, and not in well known places in Berlin, Munich, Nürnberg etc but small towns and cities in Germany. Even as a kid playing at soldiers I would opt to be the Germans and not the Brits. Now is this an example of some previous life in Hitler's Germany? As a believer in reincarnation I could accept that. Would not be surprised if it was a genuine case. Apparently, the wisdom goes, that if killed before your time in accidents, wars, etc there is a speedy return. What is taken away from you by others is restored to you. It is unusual to want to be on the side of 'the enemy', so I wouldn't be surprised if your suspicions are correct. I suppose you could ask yourself how you felt about people around you in your early days (mistrustful?) as against how you feel about them now. More understanding now? Enemies are not what we suppose them to be most of the time. Maat
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Post by whistler on Mar 27, 2008 3:29:13 GMT
Maat I have to disagree with Would not be surprised if it was a genuine case. Apparently, the wisdom goes, that if killed before your time in accidents, wars, etc there is a speedy return. What is taken away from you by others is restored to you. The moment of Death from what ever form it may take - is in perfect time. It is the correct completion. To say there is a speedy return after a sudden death, or nasty happenings after a suicide is just not correct. The fact somebody may return quickly is certainly possible - but it will not be because they have died suddenly HGW
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Post by hollandr on Mar 27, 2008 3:40:20 GMT
>Now is this an example of some previous life in Hitler's Germany?
To my observation many of those killed in WW2 returned very quickly.
I would speculate that having sacrificed themselves in the great conflict between light and darkness they wished to return to help consolidate the spiritual victory.
And of course many of those reborn from the war were back in time for the next push which included the New Age movement and the Flower Power movement
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Post by hollandr on Mar 27, 2008 3:48:46 GMT
Maat
I think you are correct in asserting that the self-image in not the core of the personality
Although I am not clear that your nephew demonstrates that as he seems to have brought through skills that are beyond what is normally regarded as self-image or personality
So if self-image is not the core of the personality, what is the core?
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Post by maat on Mar 27, 2008 5:15:27 GMT
Maat I think you are correct in asserting that the self-image in not the core of the personality Although I am not clear that your nephew demonstrates that as he seems to have brought through skills that are beyond what is normally regarded as self-image or personality So if self-image is not the core of the personality, what is the core? We-eelll.... I would say that the personality that we take on is to be viewed as 'a tool' of pre birth choice or urging. Our attitude, or how we use the personality, is what makes us good tradesmen or not. Good builders or bad. No personality type is better than another, as you cannot say that a hammer is better than a saw. But some personalities are better at doing some things than others. And as we need all jobs done, we need all sorts of personalities. We need the motherly type, we need the military leader type. We need both hammer and saw to complete the building. Royal Arch, as do other belief systems, indicates to me a set path which all must tread sooner or later, this life or next.. And I also think that the Zodiac, with all its various designations and meanings, indicates both the job to be done and tools to be used (basic personality type) which we need to complete them. Think of the twelve labours of Hercules and what those stories are telling us. In my nephew's case, maybe he was too zealous in his actions re the captives - maybe he needs to learn in this life time how he would feel if someone did that to him or members of his family. Maybe when it is his turn to be a leader again, he will be both strong and benign... like King Solomon. Maat PS ... so the core of the personality could be the particular type of energy that the body has taken on. Some refer to them as Rays. Seven Rays, Twelve basic personality types, which are governed by the Four Elements - Man Eagle Lion Bull.
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Post by maat on Mar 27, 2008 5:42:11 GMT
Maat I have to disagree with Would not be surprised if it was a genuine case. Apparently, the wisdom goes, that if killed before your time in accidents, wars, etc there is a speedy return. What is taken away from you by others is restored to you. The moment of Death from what ever form it may take - is in perfect time. It is the correct completion. To say there is a speedy return after a sudden death, or nasty happenings after a suicide is just not correct. The fact somebody may return quickly is certainly possible - but it will not be because they have died suddenly HGW Hi Whistler Yes I should have said there is sometimes a speedy return. I used to think that there can be no mistakes but now I think that pre ordainment would negate free will, which is supposed to be the supreme imperative. At another level, we are told time does not exist, so from that level I think that it might be true that there are no mistakes/errors/sin, but at our level they are self evident. At a point which we cannot understand from our three dimensional world we are told we can't exist apart from God anyway. I and my Father are One. I am in the Father, the Father in me. Does my Father sin when I sin? Maat
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Post by hollandr on Mar 27, 2008 9:21:21 GMT
>I would say that the personality that we take on is to be viewed as 'a tool' of pre birth choice or urging.
I am not sure how completely true that is
For example in some societies there was much effort put into finding a wet nurse of suitable character. Presumably there was concern that the child received moral qualities from the nurse
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