staffs
Administrator
Staffs
Posts: 3,295
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Post by staffs on Apr 20, 2005 6:37:40 GMT
Bob,you are quite right i suppose.
They are more of "a graded distinction" are they not ??
yes i know it rhymes with extinction but we wont do that one.
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Post by taylorsman on Apr 24, 2005 0:58:20 GMT
Bob, I think that points up the complete difference in attitude on your side of the Tweed to ours. England is far more Rank and Class Conscious than the more Egaliterian Scotland. Having been born in Scotland and lived there for the 18 years of my childhood then spent my entire adult life in England and having been involved from 1968 till 1998 in Party Politics in both countries I feel I can say this with some justification. This may lie in the historic differences between the old Scots Clan system as against the English Aristocracy.
I tend to deal with the Practice and not the Theory and whatever fine words may be uttered in reality most UGLE Craft Brethren who have been through the Chair do avidly seek these Honours and do make the distinction at Provincial level between the various ranks, e.g. "Smith got PPSGD, Brown only got PPAGDC". If they like W Bro Smith then this is usually accompanied by "A well deserved honour!" but if he is "not on their Christmas Card List " then there is usually a jibe "He crawled enough to the PGM for that then!"
Whatever we ought to be, I have found that in general Freemasons echo the Society from which they come. We do have the hard working, friendly, helpful, altruistic in our ranks but also the lazy, ill mannered, bullying, and self seeking sycophants. That's Life I'm afraid.
Does the present UGLE Honours system perpetuate these problems? To my mind yes. Would we be better off without it having only Active Ranks with the Past Rank only awarded to those who had actually performed that Office once they had completed their Tour of Duty? Again I feel yes. Will it change? NO! there are far too many members who like it just the way it is and would resist any move to alter it in any meaningful way.
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Post by a on Apr 24, 2005 7:34:04 GMT
Taylorsman
Bearing in mind what you have said above, and the UGLE definitions of Brotherly Love, and to an extent Truth, which according to UGLE's website "Freemasons Follow" then are all of these Freemasons that you mention, actually Freemasons, in anything other than name?
Think about it.
Now imagine what Masonic life would be like if these men could learn to open their hearts.
Added: Forgot to say, no need to answer, it was philisophical, just think.
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Post by taylorsman on Apr 24, 2005 8:51:56 GMT
Stewart, I wish I had put a bet on your replying as you did, I would have been quids in!
I hate to keep saying that I live in the REAL WORLD and work with what it provides.
I accept that amongst the mostly first class and decent people I have met in Freemasonry there are also some who are in for what they can get, who have negative personality traits and for whom it really doesn't matter what fine words are printed or spoken, they will be as obnoxious in an Apron as without. Thankfully these are a minority and heavily outweighed by the honourable men.
Now Freemasonry is not alone in having in its numbers those who are only in it for their own end and who pay lip service, if any service at all, to the Noble Principles of the organisation. Today is Sunday and many people will be going to the Church of whatever denomination they belong to. Amongst them will be those to whom it is but a social practice, or to please their family , or the done thing, but who will not carry the Christian Principles into their day to day life. Likewise we are currently being bored to death by politicians of all parties in the run up to the General Election on May 5th. Their "sincerity glands" will be in overdrive but many are on an ego trip and only wish to enjoy the feel of power and to impose their agenda on Society.
On the more specific, I do feel that the present UGLE Honours system , rather than reward those who have given service to The Craft, is too open to be being used either by those who curry favour or as a source of "Patronage" and would do well to be reformed, simplifed at Provincial Level and made more Transparent.
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Post by a on Apr 24, 2005 9:04:33 GMT
Taylorsman
At least I am consistent.
Bearing in mind the other examples that you gave perhaps one of the reasons that our life is not as harmonious as it could be is simply that "lip service" as you say, is too prevalent?
All of these areas of life that you mention, illustrate how immature the human race really is. Hopefully we, as a people, will soon leave puberty.
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Post by taylorsman on Apr 24, 2005 9:30:25 GMT
In the end , Stewart, with a very few honourable exceptions, call them Saints or Fools as you chose, we are for the most part the Centre of our own Universe. In some this egocentricty is blatant, excusable in children, publicly deplored in adults but privately condoned and even cooperated with in the hope of a quid pro quo.
I would be hard pressed to find an really self sacrificing and honorable MP in the current lot seeking re-election, and many clergymen have proven to be "whitened sepulchers" Such is the human condition.
Now if this is an example of Immaturity in the Human Race we are a long time in the growing up and I frankly do not expect that to change in our lifetimes.
For my part I try to deal decently with my fellow man as long as he acts decently with me in return, which thankfully the vast majority of those with whom I have contact seem to do, or our lives do not interact so there is no problem. As to the minority who DO cause me grief, I have to deal with them for myself, as best as I am able, and as is appropriate.
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Post by jamesarn on Mar 18, 2019 1:22:30 GMT
Bob, I think that points up the complete difference in attitude on your side of the Tweed to ours. England is far more Rank and Class Conscious than the more Egaliterian Scotland. Having been born in Scotland and lived there for the 18 years of my childhood then spent my entire adult life in England and having been involved from 1968 till 1998 in Party Politics in both countries I feel I can say this with some justification. This may lie in the historic differences between the old Scots Clan system as against the English Aristocracy. I tend to deal with the Practice and not the Theory and whatever fine words may be uttered in reality most UGLE Craft Brethren who have been through the Chair do avidly seek these Honours and do make the distinction at Provincial level between the various ranks, e.g. "Smith got PPSGD, Brown only got PPAGDC". If they like W Bro Smith then this is usually accompanied by "A well deserved honour!" but if he is "not on their Christmas Card List " then there is usually a jibe "He crawled enough to the PGM for that then!" Whatever we ought to be, I have found that in general Freemasons echo the Society from which they come. We do have the hard working, friendly, helpful, altruistic in our ranks but also the lazy, ill mannered, bullying, and self seeking sycophants. That's Life I'm afraid. Does the present UGLE Honours system perpetuate these problems? To my mind yes. Would we be better off without it having only Active Ranks with the Past Rank only awarded to those who had actually performed that Office once they had completed their Tour of Duty? Again I feel yes. Will it change? NO! there are far too many members who like it just the way it is and would resist any move to alter it in any meaningful way.
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Post by boreades on Mar 21, 2019 19:00:18 GMT
The good thing about the UGLE Honours system is that it proves all brethren are equal, but some want to be more equal than others.
It also appeals to those brethren who like dressing up as soldiers.
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