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Post by taylorsman on Dec 12, 2004 12:51:02 GMT
As those of you who are Royal Arch (Chapter) here in England will know changes have been approved to that Order in England by Supreme Grand Chapter and UGLE.
The most important to my mind is that the historical contrivance needed at the time of the 1815 Union of the Antients and Moderns when UGLE came into being is at last being abolished and that the fiction that being Exaulted into RA is "The Third (Craft) Degree Completed" will be consigned to the dustbin of Masonic History. Other Constitutions such as the Scots, Irish and US do not have this statement and I personally have never accepted it and I know I am not alone amongst RA Companions in that.
Secondly there will no longer be any need for a Third Principal to be an Installed Master in Craft, again this was not the case elsewhere other than UGLE. The "Word" will be changed to accomodate this. From now on only 1 years service as a Sojourner or Scribe E or N will suffice to progress to the J Chair. Again to my mind a good move.
The contentious part is the change to the Lectures but sensibly,for the time being anyway, Chapters will be permitted to choose to stay with the current versions or use the new.
Well, I am mostly in favour of these changes, but what do you think?
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bod
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Post by bod on Dec 13, 2004 10:29:41 GMT
Only partly - because I feel they should not have a time limit on the free choice of chapters to work the 'old' or 'new' styles. Personally I would like to see Mark being brought back to it's rightful place in UGLE....
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Post by a on Dec 13, 2004 11:20:37 GMT
Bod
Do you mean as completion of the second?
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Post by waynecowley on Dec 13, 2004 11:43:02 GMT
Personally I would like to see Mark being brought back to it's rightful place in UGLE.... I agree - it is sadly missing at present being left out on a limb as it were. I would also like to see the restoration of the Passing of the Veils to bring us back in line with the rest of the world Wayne
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Post by a on Dec 13, 2004 12:17:33 GMT
How come the UGLE way is different to the rest of the worlds way? Is it something to do with the Modern and Antient compromises at the time of merger?
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bod
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Post by bod on Dec 13, 2004 12:30:36 GMT
Kind of stewart. The Mark degree was very nearly lost to english (and Welsh) freemasonry, thanks to the efforts of Thomas Dunkerley it was retained, but outside of the craft. In Scotland the Mark degree is part of the RA workings, it is awarded in the Craft lodge and the advancee is then exalted into Chapter. I think that's right - but I am sure someone will correct it if I is wrong!
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Post by taylorsman on Dec 13, 2004 16:15:56 GMT
"Personally I would like to see Mark being brought back to it's rightful place in UGLE
I agree - it is sadly missing at present being left out on a limb as it were.
I would also like to see the restoration of the Passing of the Veils to bring us back in line with the rest of the world"
Add my name to that too Companions Bod and Wayne!
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bod
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Post by bod on Dec 14, 2004 7:42:52 GMT
Thanks Taylorsman, however, I am not a companion yet.....
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Post by Proton on Dec 18, 2004 13:41:20 GMT
Interesting discussions! I am afraid that we will NEVER see the Mark restored to UGLE as has been mentioned. Sorry to be that frank. I recognise that Antients lodge so held that their warrants or charters covered anything that was masonic, and so besides the EA, FC and MM degrees the RA, EM super EM degrees were worked, as were RC KT/KM etc. The evidence that we have is the minute books of these lodges up to the Union in 1813. In 1856, some brethren reported to UGL as a Joint committee that the Mark Degree did not form part of the RA MAsonry, and was not essential to Craft MAsonry but it might be considered as forming a graceful addition to the Fellowcraft Degree! This was approved by EArl of Zetland the Pro GM at the time. A resolution was then made at the March 1856 Quarterly communication of UGL which was duly approved and carried. At the next Quarterly Communication in June 1856, these minutes of the previous meeting were then moved to be non-confirmed, as they made reference to the MArk Degree. Why you may ask? Well Grand Lodge did not have the constitutional authority to make so great a change as that of adding a new Degree to the Order. Under the Act of Union it had been declared that MAsonry would consist of the Three Degrees and no more, excepting the RA. I agree that you will see that this was a bitter blow to Mark Masonry. Within 6 months of this happening the Grand Lodge of Mark Master Masons, was formed. With all the bodies conferring the Mark degree in England aligning themselves under its authority. I would also add that there has been a concordat signed by Grand Lodge of Scotland and Grand Chapter of Scotland and the GL of MMM. It is really an accident of history in the way the UGLE or moderns masonry has developed, with all the slimming down of what I would call the traditional ceremonies. But it still does not stop brethren from finding that traditional way in which things were done. Similarly I do not think the SGC will ever reinstate the Ceremony of the veils. Yes we can all speculate but the practicality is that too much time has elapsed and we now do not have a valid reason for its inclusion in our ceremonies. If one was to petition SGC via a Province, or whatever what would you say? Nice idea though, but I for one would do the veils ceremony in Scotland, because you do get a certificate attesting to you having done that degree. But make sure that you have done a MArk first. You could also do that in scotland too! Being members of a Moderns GL has its drawbacks but there are ways around these! ;D Proton
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bod
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Post by bod on Dec 18, 2004 14:59:43 GMT
It is really an accident of history in the way the UGLE or moderns masonry has developed, with all the slimming down of what I would call the traditional ceremonies. But it still does not stop brethren from finding that traditional way in which things were done. Being members of a Moderns GL has its drawbacks but there are ways around these! ;D Proton I'm seeing that more and more......
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Post by middlepillar on Dec 18, 2004 17:09:08 GMT
Interesting discussions! I am afraid that we will NEVER see the Mark restored to UGLE as has been mentioned. Sorry to be that frank. To be perfectly frank. I would not want the Mark to be administered from Gt Qn St. All they have done is bugger up The Craft and bugger up the RA please dont let them get anywhere near our most interesting ceremonies because as right as ninepence they would only bugger them up! The Mark and all the Degrees administered from MMH are superbly administered and the Orders are encouraged and supported by an extensive network of brethren ready to help at any time (help but not interfere)
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Post by Hubert (N. Z.) on Dec 18, 2004 21:44:31 GMT
Some of the above makes quite sad reading. We in Comasonry have both mark and HRA, and until recently Mark Mariners (lapsed for want of members).
I consider both Mark and HRA essential side degrees for a better understanding of all the Craft has to offer. We do not stress the fact that it is a conclusion or adjunct to 2nd & 3rd degrees, as they are quite capable of standing on their own merits. They DO offer a considerable insight into symbolism and allegory and greatly enhance the search for TRUTH. For that reason the passing of the Veils is critical, and I am surprised at the lack of foresight by the powers that be in UGLE, in suggesting/demanding? it be deleted. If this is to make the degree more appealing to the general Brn. they are missing a great deal! Quality and Full info is always preferable to quick N' easy ceremonial. Those that value REAL masonry will always continue the Traditional form. I Know I'm from an alternative workings, but my heart is with those of you that mourn the fragmentation/disintegration of our historical traditions. WE MUST KEEP STRIVING TO RESTORE THE GENUINE SECRETS OF A MM.
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bod
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Post by bod on Dec 19, 2004 1:02:26 GMT
To be perfectly frank. I would not want the Mark to be administered from Gt Qn St. All they have done is bugger up The Craft and bugger up the RA please dont let them get anywhere near our most interesting ceremonies because as right as ninepence they would only bugger them up! The Mark and all the Degrees administered from MMH are superbly administered and the Orders are encouraged and supported by an extensive network of brethren ready to help at any time (help but not interfere) Don't hold back M/p - you say what you mean, brother!
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Post by taylorsman on Dec 19, 2004 10:49:10 GMT
Now here I can agree with Hubert, the Mark does stand on its own Merits and does not require the prop of Craft behind it. I also feel that pressure must be maintained for SGC to re-introduce Passing the Veils to the English Royal Arch. The dead hand of the Duke of Sussex and all that he was to blame for in English Freemasonry should no longer reach down across the centuries to further hurt us as the "political" reasons for his actions immediatelly following the Union of 1815 have long since faded into history with him.
I also endore Middlepillar's sentiments. I was at MMH yesterday for St Thomas of Acon, a lovely friendly meeting and much "Scottish Wine" imbibed by myself and others in the bar thereafter ;D. I too have found that there is far less pettyfogging bureaucracy in those Higher Degrees run from MMH and for that matter Duke Street, than from GQS. Leave UGLE and its Committees to Rule in Regal Splendour over Craft and RA only.
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Post by mrmason on Dec 19, 2004 16:17:10 GMT
I sat in an English RAC about 3/4 weeks ago for the first time. I was very impressed with the ceremony and the lectures. IMHO these must remain but I think the companions should embrace the other changes, i.e, the word and the chairs degrees qualifications.
I would like to say that we in Scotland really don't see the Mark as a completion, more of an extention of the 2nd degree.
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Post by middlepillar on Dec 21, 2004 23:28:23 GMT
Steve Maybe the Poll is to vague? (no criticism) Because I vehemently oppose the suggested changes to the ritual. Even though at the moment they are optional (we all know what will eventually happen) I still see this as a dumbing down of The Royal Arch and as one who still delivers the original Mystical lecture which contains so much Symbolism and 'colourful' explanations you can see why I am apprehensive of any more changes. Yet I do agree with bringing The Royal Arch more in line with other Grand Lodges and taking away this ridiculous assumption that it completes the 3rd Degree. Quite simply it stands on its own as a superb piece of Masonic ceremony/ritual. But as discussed elsewhere it is not an easy ceremony to understand or appreciate at an early stage of a Bros masonic Carreer. So if the proposed changes to The Royal Arch tackle these points I would be in favour of this aspect of the changes! Does this make sense or am I rambling again?
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Post by taylorsman on Dec 21, 2004 23:40:27 GMT
Makes enough sense to me, and perhaps we ought to make the qualifying period 1 Year from the date of being Raised.
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Post by middlepillar on Dec 22, 2004 22:47:45 GMT
Makes enough sense to me, and perhaps we ought to make the qualifying period 1 Year from the date of being Raised. I would be tempted to make it more two but perhaps that would be unreasonable for the more 'eager'?
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Post by Hubert (N. Z.) on Dec 23, 2004 20:17:39 GMT
Here in NZ, in Co-Masonry, we have a general rule for a period of One year between side degrees, starting with waiting one yr after being Raised. We also follow that thru with only being in one Chair at a time and then only for two consecutive years. However dispensations are available in rare circumstances.
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jmd
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Post by jmd on Mar 26, 2005 7:23:38 GMT
[As a little aside, Mark Mariners has not lapsed in LDH Co-Freemasonry, and there is at least one Mooring in Melbourne.]
I too would prefer that UGLE re-introduce the veils for HRA, and must admit that I was surprised it did not have them when I first heard of it a number of years ago. They are certainly also retained in Victorian working under the Supreme Grand Chapter in Victoria.
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