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Post by a on Feb 28, 2005 9:09:23 GMT
Just curious.
While I don't expect anyone to put their name to a post, I will just to get the ball rolling.
As a child I did hours of internal work daily (though I did not realise that this is what it was at the time), then for a while this stopped as I became engrossed in the physical world. For the last 5-7 years I have been doing several hours a day.
In case anyone is wondering as to the masonic relevance of this. The ritual contains moral lessons. Reading and memorising the ritual is not, in my opinion, internal work. Thinking about the words, wondering how your daily actions stack up against these lessons, being honest in self criticism, working hard to think and reflect and incorporate the lessons into your daily life, are some types of internal work.
It is not just a Masonic thing, and internal work is more wide ranging than this, but Freemasonry does offer a wonderful set of internal working tools. But reading and memorising ritual does not count (Stewart awaits/looks forward to the disagreement here) , it is the thinking that matters.
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Post by middlepillar on Feb 28, 2005 10:09:56 GMT
Just curious. In case anyone is wondering as to the masonic relevance of this. The ritual contains moral lessons. Reading and memorising the ritual is not, in my opinion, internal work. A man/woman is initiated in to Masonry, he is mundane, however he has enjoyed his experience so much he wants to learn the ritual and be able to perform the ceremonies he has gone through, he reads and re reads his ritual book and eventually he learns all of the ceremonial pieces. At the end of this period of time he has indeed become a good ritualist and can deliver all the ceremonial work like a true thespian. He would also by now after many hours spent at his ritual book got a good understanding of what Freemasonry and its Moral teachings are about and indeed would be able to communicate much of the lessons he has learnt to others. But in your opinion Stewart he has done no internal work, I think that internal work comes in many forms and is taught to individuals in many different ways. This particular individual is probably an example like myself. I got off on the wrong foot but through the ritual I learned it made me look closer at issues and I started to learn other things, but learning the ritual for me was the beginning. To use an interesting analogy; How many young Toddlers do you see running around with a Dummy stuck in thier mouth? I bet most of us think "Thats awful a kid with a dummy in his mouth at that age". At the end of the day the kid will grow up perfectly normal and not depend on his dummy eventually and will probably be just as 'socially skilled' as a kid who didn't Both kids reach the same stage but they both had different journeys, some we consider the right way others the wrong way, both ways lead to a point in life. Its what you do in all things that make you what you are! One mans internal work is quite meditation and thought anothers could be group based and others may be experienced based, as you can see I dont like putting internal work in a box and being told 'that internal work doesnt count because I dont think its what I call internal work'. Sorry Stewart, I cant answer the question because you have told me the very source of my being who I am today is not what I thought it was.
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Post by taylorsman on Feb 28, 2005 10:50:17 GMT
Some people indulge in what Stewart calls "Internal Work" some don't. In a way it is like the two types of Religious Orders. Some "walk the talk" by teaching, running hospitals, clinics, hospices etc, others are Closed Orders and fill their time in contemplation and prayer, although they may do some practical work such as making Communion Wafers and Wine, Candles, Vestments etc, but this within the confines of their Convent or Monastery. Both follow the teachings of their Religion in differing ways and although I greatly prefer the active Religious who perform services to their fellow man it is not for me to condemn the Contemplatives.
Likewise many who are Freemasons do not actively indulge in "Internal Work", I don't, but we try to follow the Principles and Tenets and Moral Lessons inculcated in the various Degrees in our Everyday Life, in work, at home, etc. I would compare such to a process of osmosis as the Brother unconsciously absorbs the teachings of Freemasonry and is changed for the better by them.
Although I have a great interest in the Esoteric, I have to live in the real world and am subject to its rules, pressures and conventions. I consider myself to be an "Enlightened Pragmatist" working with the tools and materials to hand, I leave the Philosophy and Contemplation to those with the time and inclination.
In the end we are all travelling in the same direction, but the vehicle we use, the speed at which we proceed and the routes may vary, the destination is the same for all.
Good Luck! Stewart in your Internal Work, but as I have said before and even to you face to face, I honestly feel you are more likely to find this in Co-Masonry than under UGLE etc, certainly as regards the opening stages such as UGLE Craft.
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Post by a on Feb 28, 2005 11:21:20 GMT
Middlepillar
Excellent, I have made you think again. Could I also point out another part of my postI was hoping that someone whould disagree. Helps generate thought you see.
Taylorsman
I do hear you regarding these nudges away from UGLE towards comasonry.
Can I ask though how can you "follow the Principles and Tenets and Moral Lessons inculcated in the various Degrees in our Everyday Life" without performing internal work? I am just curious.
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Post by taylorsman on Feb 28, 2005 11:42:47 GMT
Quite easily! I live my life with a lot of it taken up by work and the day to day requirements we all have and in so doing I try to act in accordance with the Principles of the many Orders I am in towards my fellow workers and those with whom I have to deal. If I am doing any Office which requires that I study some piece of Ritual I will do this at home and rehearse it in my head when cycling to work, in slack periods, during boring work meetings which I have to attend but which are of no interest or use to me etc. The words and their meanings of necessity seep into my mind.
I don't sit down with a book, be it of Ritual or a Commentary on Freemasonry and pour over it, that has never been my scene any more than I sit and read The Bible. However, I and many others have found that in some way I cannot fully explain, and if one is open to it. Freemasonry is absorbed and informs the way we act towards our fellow men.
I have said it and will repeat. I know quite a lot about regular Freemasonry as practiced under UGLE and I'm in sufficient orders to feel that from what I know of you Stewart, the discussions we have had and the postings you have made that you woud NOT be all that happy in UGLE Freemasonry, and it would not be happy with you. I have not got hands-on knowledge of Co-Masonry , I have to go on what I have read here, mostly from Hubert, Whistler, Yoki, Ingo and from JMD on another place. From what I understand of it you are far more suited to that Route than the Regular one where I feel that for the first few years at Craft level you would be frustrated and bored to tears until you were able to join some of the Higher Degrees.
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Post by a on Feb 28, 2005 14:04:02 GMT
you woud NOT be all that happy in UGLE Freemasonry, and it would not be happy with you. Pity. ok let me answer this. 1. I happen to know that a place can be found for me within comasonry, though I do understand that I will need to be placed "carefully". But the place is there. The last time I checked anyway. But equally I have options in other parts of the Masonic world as well, including as you know routes into UGLE. However you will be pleased to hear that I have no intention of being anywhere that I am unwelcome. 2. Could I advise caution on your use of the word "regular". I happen to know that the way that you use it here, which is understandable from your UGLE background, will irritate many a comason, and indeed non-UGLE amity male only FM around the world. Remember UGLE-amity has defined the word "regular" as you understand it but this forum is open to FM of all fraternities, each of whom believes that they are also regular in their work. Please don't underestimate how much you will upset Freemasons by talking about regular in this way.
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Post by middlepillar on Feb 28, 2005 15:04:07 GMT
Middlepillar Excellent, I have made you think again. Stewart Sometimes I think you do it deliberately! All the posts to this Forum make me think, not just yours I think steves quote that he considers himself to be an 'enlightened pragmatist' is superb! I am going to try and use that someday soon. However Stewart I do not completely agree with Steve re you joining one form of masonry to the other. I think if you joined a UGLE Lodge there would be two beneficial effects. One it would be the ultimate challenge for us (UGLE) and two it would test your capacity for patience and perhaps tolerance! Could be interesting
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Post by a on Feb 28, 2005 16:56:43 GMT
I have never seen myself as an "ultimate challenge" before, been laughing about this for a while ;D
If you want to see me as a challenge have a word with your Grand Secretary, assuming he reads my correspondence. Someone must do as I have been known to get the odd reply.
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Post by taylorsman on Feb 28, 2005 23:46:33 GMT
Stewart, you of ALL people should be well aware that I do NOT consider UGLE etc Freemasonry as Superior to Co-Masonry or Women Only Freemasonry. I use the word REGULAR only because other readers will immediately recognise that as meaning the Freemasonry practiced and controlled by UGLE, GL of S, GL of I, most of the US Grand Lodges, etc and so forth.
"Irregular" may have a perjorative connotation in everyday speech but I feel that the less thin skinned readers will be aware of my intent in using that word. I did try using Traditional and Alternative but nobody knew what I was on about.
I become more convinced that your future lies, as Elton John put it, beyond the yellow brick road, with Co-Masonry, but that is a choice for you to make and for a Lodge to fulfill or not as the case may be.
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Post by whistler on Mar 1, 2005 5:40:32 GMT
Stewart, If you ever become a Freemason, I think you will have a shock and feel quite alone. In your statements about the craft you make many sweeping comment, and deep statements. You will realise that many of the lofty comments about internal workings, and looking within, knowing oneself have been just a wall for you to hide behind. You need to start with a clean slate. Freemasonry is about self development, and not self excuses. When you become a Freemason your masonic growth depends upon yourself and yourself alone. You will be shown many things and given many keys but only you can understand the things shown to you and only you can turn the keys given. You can't ask anybody to do either for you. You appear quite disturbed that an application to join was rejected. Only you can change that. It is no good asking around why, you must ask yourself why, measure yourself against others who are Freemasons, and work through things for yourself.. You mention your daughter saying people laugh at not with you. You mention that you work as a clown - do you present yourself as a clown, or as Stewart? I suspect that Stewart is much less complicated than the clown. You make things difficult for yourself by expecting from Freemasonry.,without understanding that is delivers a reflection of it's members. If you became a Freemason what would you deliver? For example your comment about learning ritual not being internal work - but it is my friend -it is about your own personal responsibilty - If your Bro expect you to present the ritual you owe it to yourself to perform that ritual for them to the very best of your ability - It is called Service. Understanding the ritual is of course is also important Internal Work but for a different reason. You would feel very hollow if you completely understood the meaning of the ritual you performed, but fumbled and stumbled through because you hadn't applied yourself to your own Internal Work, learning how to perform. BTW HGW Stewart I am sure you have the makings of an excellant Mason, you just need a little earthing
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Post by a on Mar 1, 2005 7:20:39 GMT
You know Whistler you have me thinking, in a positive way. I will not respond to this just now, as I need to spend some time, at least days, possibly weeks/months/years, thinking and reflecting through all of your observations. Thank you for providing me so much matierial to work with. It really is appreciated.
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staffs
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Post by staffs on Mar 1, 2005 8:33:53 GMT
whistler,when you say "earthing" do you mean coming back down to earth with the feet firmly on the ground or do you mean spiritual and earth bodies becoming one
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Post by taylorsman on Mar 1, 2005 13:06:56 GMT
Or even like discharging a capacitor by shorting it to earth?
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Post by a on Mar 1, 2005 13:07:20 GMT
Staffs I think that Whistler means that he wants to get all of the Freemasons in the world together in two straight lines, with me having to walk up the middle being pelted by earth. (or worse )
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Post by staffs on Mar 1, 2005 17:53:26 GMT
Whistler,now if you are saying that internal work IYO does include ritual work then i would say my time to this is approx one hour per day.
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Post by whistler on Mar 1, 2005 18:22:57 GMT
Whistler,now if you are saying that internal work IYO does include ritual work then i would say my time to this is approx one hour per day. By earthing I mean we are in a world that requires us to go to work, earn money, pay mortgages, when we have young children - to wipe snotty noses, smelly bums. it is called life. we are on planet earth to do all thise mundane things as well as seek the light .... to do one without the other, is to be without balance and nothing is achieved . Re the internal work relating to ritual learning. In this aspect the focus is on your responsibility to your self to perform to your very best... remember you are the ultimate judge of yourself - If all the Freemasons in the world accepted personal responsibility for their actions - that would be neat - thats all that is needed
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Post by a on Mar 1, 2005 20:48:45 GMT
Whistler
I am still not going to respond to your posts yet for reasons explained.
But I will say:-
If I were in New Zealand, I would have absolutely no problem coming to you for instruction. I may however drive you nuts.
All
Everything as they say does happen for a reason. Its the figuring out of the reason that can take time. It certainly has taken me time, but then again the time is also right, well nearly right.
Mind you I am still thinking about me being UGLEs "Ultimate challenge."
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Post by a on Mar 1, 2005 21:54:10 GMT
I become more convinced that your future lies, as Elton John put it, beyond the yellow brick road, with Co-Masonry, but that is a choice for you to make and for a Lodge to fulfill or not as the case may be. Steve I will make a statement about this once I have turned forty, explaining what I will be doing from then on Masonically speaking, and indeed non Masonically speaking, to anyone who is interested. But I will just now confess to have been sitting on a dilema for some time. On the one hand I have come to realise how important Freemasonry is to our world, both generally, and specifically at this moment in time. And as I see Freemasonry as a Divine gift that can be found in our hearts, these man made distinctions of fraternities does complicate matters. Now, as you know:- 1. I do have options available to me as to Lodges, in several fraternities, including UGLE. Whether or not they are still open I would have to check, bar one which I know from recent correspondence is most definately open. 2. I am already called "Brother" by a fair number of Freemasons. 3. I already get a huge amount out of Freemasonry. 4. I already put an awful lot into freemasonry. The time that I have invested in forums, in corresponding/meeting with Freemasons off forum, from people thinking of applying through to Grand Secretaries, Grand Masters and Past Grand Master. Some even reply to me. One even started the letter "Dear Brother". These are two of the ways that I have been involved with Freemasonry so far. 5. On top of this look at some of the things that I have achieved so far. By your own admission I have made a good number of Freemasons think. They may be thinking negatively about me, but that is unimportant, what is important is that Freemasony not only gets through the current challenges that face it, but comes out of it strong. I have also helped as best I can a number of Freemasons who have come to me when they needed someone and when I have been able to I have helped. So I guess that there is some value in me doing what I am doing. But on the other hand:- I am well aware that I am the subject of ridicule in some parts of the masonic world, that some see me as an anti, as someone never to be let in. Fine, I have no problem with any of this. I am however intrigued by Middlepillars comments on me being UGLEs "ultimate challenge." But that will keep me busy for a while. What I am saying Steve is this, me joining or not joining a Freaternity is not what is important. What is important is that I progress along my own journey, and do what I can to help on the way. Indeed the two are closely related However having generated thought, and offered possible solutions to many of the problems currently facing Freemasonry, there is no more that I can do for you at this time. The next step really is down to you, whether you use these energies or whether you discount them. But that is your choice. I am moving on and focusing more on what I can do to bring a little more harmony to our world at the International Level before Mother Nature resets our world for us. It may be very little, after all I am just one man, but I would be failing if I did not at least try. But later this month I will, if you are interested, post a detailed reasoning for the decisions that I have made regarding Freemasonry and my relationship with it.
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Post by middlepillar on Mar 1, 2005 23:14:24 GMT
[quote author=stewartedwards I am however intrigued by Middlepillars comments on me being UGLEs "ultimate challenge." But that will keep me busy for a while. [/quote]
Stewart
You have said you are going to think about my comment, so I will try to explain it a little better.
In our Freemasonry (UGLE) we accept that there are 3 Degrees in Freemasonry and these are ruled and looked after by UGLE. We who are under thier juristiction have to move outside of thier perimeter to join other Orders, some of these Orders as you are aware deal with the Hiramic Legend, others deal with Christian Masonry and one on Old Operative Masonry, all have great Moral Teachings within them and of course the Christian ones look at Masonry in Relation to the new Testament.
Then we also have the SRIA which although you have to be a Freemason to join is not a Masonic Order, when you join this you have the opportunity of getting involved in some very esoteric orders. Most of the Esoteric Orders are really founded from the French Philisophical approach to Freemasonry (For example Willermoz who is the founder of the CBCS was very active in France around 1730-50).
Now the reason I think you would be an ultimate challenge is quite simple that you already have an immense working knowledge of Freemasonry, and I believe from the moment you are initiated you will want to start your next part of the journey to where you want to be, and I think it will take something/someone very strong to make you as my great friend says 'slow down and make sure you smell the roses'. For you see I feel although you know a lot, you really in Masonic terms know very little and I am not trying to insult you, it is simply that however much you read or talk, until you experience these initiatic experiences you are still very blind, hence you will be a great challenge, and one that Iwould love to participate in, because you could be a great Mason but as in everything by the fact that you could be great you also could be a complete disaster.
I hope that I have explained myself, and this I think is the reason people think you will find Co-Masonry more for you,simply because you can participate in spiritual and esoteric work much easier.
S & F
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Post by Hubert (N. Z.) on Mar 2, 2005 4:28:21 GMT
I'm with you there, middlepillar. Slow and easy is the best way to assimilate ALL that Freemasonry teaches. It is not only a head thing it is also in the heart & in the senses. One needs to absorb what occurs and our reaction/emotion/understanding of the new energies and propositions it EVOKES.
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