|
Post by whistler on Jan 18, 2006 18:38:41 GMT
With Thanks to Russell
|
|
bod
Member
UGLE - MM (London), MMM RAM(Middx), OSM (London)
Posts: 1,296
|
Post by bod on Jan 18, 2006 23:17:58 GMT
Whistler,
Thats too easy mate - everyone knows the answer!
Freemasonry is a gift from the GAOTU to humanity
|
|
|
Post by hollandr on Jan 19, 2006 2:54:50 GMT
Whistler & Bod
The answer may be obvious to us but not necessarily to those captured by the administrative machinery and culture of most Grand Lodges.
But how to escape from the current situation without collateral damage?
Cheers
Russell
|
|
giovanni
Member
odi profanum vulgus, et arceo
Posts: 2,627
|
Post by giovanni on Jan 19, 2006 7:34:27 GMT
IMO Freemasonry is the mean through which men freely seek after the GAOU.
It is therefore a human invention, owned by men.
|
|
|
Post by a on Jan 19, 2006 7:56:27 GMT
Freemasonry is a Divine Gift that can be found in our Hearts.
Man has taken this gift and fractured it, weakening it in the process. Instead of creating strength through diversity, man has weakened what is something rather special.
Russell, get all of the powers that be in a room together and put me in front of them for a few hours (you may have to lock the door to stop them walking out at some stages). That will help. Many will not like what I say at first, and it will be a challenge for them, but steps will be taken.
All in my opinion anyway.
|
|
|
Post by taylorsman on Jan 19, 2006 11:41:06 GMT
Freemasonry may like Organised Religion be Divinely Inspired but is a Human artifact with all the flaws and shortcomings inherent therein.
It SHOULD belong to its Members, down to the Individual and as embodied in each Lodge (and equivalent) but as you all known in Regular Malecraft that ain't necessarily so. Once anything develops a Hierarchy it becomes overlarded both with Pomp and all sorts of Rules and Regulations to the extent that the original Tenets and Principles are sidelined if not totally lost. This has happened with Religion, it's a long , long way from a Stable in Bethlehem to the Vatican!
As to Stewart's idea to "get all of the powers that be in a room together and put me in front of them for a few hours " it simply won't happen!
Even if it did he would simply be ignored as irrelevant by most who were there and things would continue as they have for nearly 200 years. To use an analogy , I can read Mein Kampf but that would NOT make me a Nazi, I could go to Mass that would NOT make me a Roman Catholic. You can lead the horse to water.......
Stewart, enjoy your walk in the sands, you will achieve more doing this , albeit the physical contra-indications, than continuing with your Quixotic Quest to "reform" UGLE -which frankly does not want your help anyway!
|
|
|
Post by a on Jan 19, 2006 12:33:28 GMT
Taylorsman
You miss the point. I am more interested in Freemasonry, that in the individual fraternities.
UGLE just happens to be in a unique position at this moment in time, and if it chooses to miss the moment then that is ok (which sadly looks like is going to happen). And while I know that many UGLE Freemasons do not want me near, there are those who do, and given the opinions which Lord Northampton has stated, I do have hope that UGLE can turn the corner. It may not be able do it in time for it to lead in the future but that is a separate issue, which UGLE is in control of and responsible for. After all its current position is a direct reflection of past actions. And its future position will be a reflection of its actions today.
Never is a very long time. You may not wish it, every Freemason you know may not wish it. But that does not mean that it won't happen.
It is startling how asking Freemasons to do what they say that they do, and follow the tenets, back to basics, can be so well troublesome.
|
|
|
Post by taylorsman on Jan 19, 2006 13:04:00 GMT
I don't think I miss the point at all Stewart! To my mind you have some self appointed mission to change Freemasonry to how you feel it ought to be and will not take the hint that you are wasting both its and your own time,
UGLE and Malecraft Freemasonry has its faults. I personally feel that at Craft level it is far too social orientated, more interested in blind perfection in the performance of Rituals whilst having little interest in the meaning of the words and actions being performed , and has too much bureaucracy on top of the Lodges, especially at Provincial Level, and has a far too convoluted Honours system again in Provincial Craft with all the problems that can engender.
However, this seems to be what the majority of its Members are content with and it is unlikely to change greatly in the foreseeable future. As far as I am concerned I will stay in and find what I am seeking in the Higher Degrees, especially the Christian and Chivalric ones, and will help any Brother who wishes to enhance his knowledge by joining these or the Higher Hiramic Orders. If I ever felt that I was no longer happy in UGLE etc Freemasonry then I would have to review my situation and act accordingly.
Like Christianity, Freemasonry in its widest sense is big enough to accomodate many differing interpretations. As an example take the Roman Catholic and the Orthodox Churches, sacerdotal, sacramental, ritualistic, dogmatic and doctrinal, authoritarian, with a large body of Rules and Regulations and where the layman is separated from the Priesthood. These are the opposite end of the Christian Spectrum to the Evangelical Churches some of which practice the Priesthood of all Believers and have a far simpler and more scriptural system. Both however are encompassed within Christianity.
Personally, I feel that Freemasonry can accomodate all these various interpretations in a similar manner to Christianity and I feel no personal need nor mission to try to change Co-Masonry or RGLE Masonry, or Grand Orient of France Masonry to comply with the UGLE mould. There is enough room for peaceful co-existence without any need for homogenisation. My wish would be for mutual Recognition and the abolition of the ban on intervisitation.
|
|
|
Post by corab on Jan 19, 2006 13:19:40 GMT
Apologies for stating the obvious, but ... Freemasonry owned by neither us nor the GAOTU - and by both!
It's a co-operation; team work; partnership.
The GAOTU may have inspired it, but we have built on that foundation - to find our way back to our Origin, our Maker.
Can I suggest a "Both" option be added to the poll?
Cheers,
Cora
|
|
|
Post by a on Jan 19, 2006 14:59:51 GMT
Ok lets break this one down ExactlyIf I were self appointed how does that stack up with the fact that some of your brothers knew that I would be doing what I have been doing before I did myself? Remember that some encouraged me and some really did try to put me off before I was doing anything. Boy did I think they were barmy. Nope. Freemasonry does not need to change.which is simply what Freemasons claim it to be. - the basics. All that I have ever asked is for Freemasons to be Freemasons. To strive for truth etc, to follow the tenets.Taylorsman if all of your brothers were telling me to go away, then I would, but that is simply not the case. Some do appear to value my work. That all said I decided months ago to back off, which I have done, ask your Grand Secretary he no longer gets correspondence from me, as one example of my going away. At the end of the day Taylorsman, I never came to this wanting to do anything. I came lost and broken. I found myself, I found that I then knew things that quite frankly appear to be the lessons of some very high side degrees - and that took a lot of believing (from what I can tell from the outside from the likes of Morals and Dogma and Freemasonry Today - please forgive me if I am wrong here). I also found that some Freemasons seemed to know that I would be doing what I have done, before I did myself. I have previously given examples of this on forum. And in time I came to decide to actually do something. But no I have not wasted my time, for I have travelled far on it. And I don't think that I have wasted Freemasonrys time, though I will accept this, if those that I have helped all tell me that I have watsed their time. All in all, and forgive the arrogance here, not bad for a rejected candidate. Taking steps is never easy, which is why I guess many shy away from the journey.
|
|
|
Post by a on Jan 19, 2006 15:03:58 GMT
Though I can and do understand why some feel uncomfortable about a bloke from nowhere, who was rejected by UGLE, being able to help people take steps that they should be able to take from within the system, and gain an occassional shoulder that should also be available from within.
|
|
|
Post by waynecowley on Jan 19, 2006 15:47:06 GMT
Stewart
Just a technicality but you were not rejected by UGLE - you were rejected by a lodge on the register of the UGLE. I think that there is a subtle difference
Wayne
|
|
|
Post by a on Jan 19, 2006 16:00:08 GMT
Wayne
Fair comment.
Taylorsman
Above you state "To my mind," can I ask what does your heart (as opposed to your head) say to you?
To anyone
Once you can learn to differentiate your heart from your head, you have taken a valuable step. Many steps after that - believing, acting, balancing, but that is later.
|
|
|
Post by whistler on Jan 19, 2006 18:30:35 GMT
Wayne Fair comment. Taylorsman Above you state "To my mind," can I ask what does your heart (as opposed to your head) say to you? To anyone Once you can learn to differentiate your heart from your head, you have taken a valuable step. Many steps after that - believing, acting, balancing, but that is later. Stewart - Just an idle question- what has your debate with taylorsman got to do with the Poll?
|
|
|
Post by a on Jan 19, 2006 18:40:39 GMT
Oops
|
|
|
Post by mike on Jan 19, 2006 20:05:11 GMT
Sorry ............................ what was the question M
|
|
|
Post by penfold on Jan 19, 2006 21:12:21 GMT
Poll Question: Is Masonry owned by humans or owned by the GAOTU
HTH
|
|
giovanni
Member
odi profanum vulgus, et arceo
Posts: 2,627
|
Post by giovanni on Jan 19, 2006 22:49:11 GMT
Poll Question: Is Masonry owned by humans or owned by the GAOTU HTH Your acronyms will drive me to madness!
|
|
bod
Member
UGLE - MM (London), MMM RAM(Middx), OSM (London)
Posts: 1,296
|
Post by bod on Jan 19, 2006 23:37:35 GMT
I think Penfold means 'Happy to Help' - fortunately I am fluent in TLA.....
|
|
|
Post by ingo on Jan 21, 2006 20:29:14 GMT
It is heaven and hell, made by human beings
|
|