bod
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Post by bod on Jun 30, 2005 10:31:30 GMT
What medicine Steve? What are those who think it is a social club done to deserve such treatment? I'm not talking about those overbearing twits that spoil peoples experience, but those who come along and enjoy the social side and donate to charity - there is nothing wrong with that, and you would soon find we had very few people in masonry if you insisted on people adopting the esoteric view to remain members. Plus which esoteric view do you take? 'Cos there are huge variations in interpretation within that field itself.
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Post by taylorsman on Jun 30, 2005 11:30:22 GMT
I think it was quite obvious that I meant the Bullies. The Social Clubbers are a distraction but that is all and yes, they do spread the cost as overheads/25 is a lot less than overheads/5 when it comes to subs etc.
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staffs
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Staffs
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Post by staffs on Jun 30, 2005 14:27:23 GMT
What medicine Steve? What are those who think it is a social club done to deserve such treatment? I'm not talking about those overbearing twits that spoil peoples experience, but those who come along and enjoy the social side and donate to charity - there is nothing wrong with that, and you would soon find we had very few people in masonry if you insisted on people adopting the esoteric view to remain members. Plus which esoteric view do you take? 'Cos there are huge variations in interpretation within that field itself. Bod, With Steve being a Frater i think his esoteric viewpoint may well be completely different to yours or mine who have not had that experience. None the less though our personal viewpoint on esotericism is ours alone and equally important.
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Post by middlepillar on Jun 30, 2005 16:10:26 GMT
[quote In nearly 17 years I have encountered a couple of Masonic Bullies. .[/quote]
I am sorry but this just sums up the nonsense of this thread.
I also in my 18 years of membership have come across a couple of bullies, lets be honest if I had been a member of a golf club I think it would be a couple of dozen at least! (I am not digging out Golf in particular-sports clubs in general)
Bullying is nasty, and very unwelcome but in over 35 years of membership two of us have come across 4 bullies! I really do not think this is one of Freemasons problems. (And before you answer Stewart, I do believe 1 bully is 1 to many!)
With reference to the book I am sure it is extremely interesting and very useful if you are unfortunate enough to be on the receiving end of a bully.
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Post by a on Jun 30, 2005 16:25:00 GMT
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Post by taylorsman on Jun 30, 2005 16:52:44 GMT
Stewart. This problem exists all over. Yes, we find it in Golf Clubs, Soccer Teams, Offices and Factories, etc, etc as well as in Schools. However, in Freemasonry one of the oft repeated slogans is "BROTHERLY LOVE, Relief and Truth". Bullying is the direct negation of that First Grand Principle. Now ignoring it, as many seem to do, will NOT make it go away, anything but. Even if I have only met TWO Masonic Bullies that was two too many.
I have quite a robust personality, case hardened by the knocks I have had in 34 years of adult life, from Bullies in many walks of life, principally superiors and the occasional co-worker in my various employments. I give as good as I get and have on occasion used my fists to good effect on a Bully when all lenient means to appease them had failed. The last place I wish to encounter Bullies is in Freemasonry, as not only should such behaviour not occur in a Lodge or its associated LOI, Lodge Committee or in the bar after the Meeting, but this is supposed to be a pleasure activity and one which costs a tidy sum these days. I wonder how many new Bretheren have encountered such overbearing behaviour and said to themselves "Blow this for a lark!" and have resigned or even just let their subs lapse and have been excluded but have never said why, and few Lodges bother to follow up when a newish Member drops out, they write it off as "natural wastage" or assume the fault was with the ex-Member and not within the Lodge.
Yes, I have only encountered a few bad guys and the vast majority of Brethren be they EAs up to PGMs that I have met have been really nice chaps, but we must stop the few bad apples from spoiling our barrel. Someone who meets such people, especially a new Brother, is more likely to remember them and their adverse effects than the decent Brethren he met.
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Post by middlepillar on Jun 30, 2005 18:31:21 GMT
Taylorsman
I do agree with everything you and Stewart say, however I do not think it is a 'big' problem.
If you look at my last post I said one bully is one too many, I just do not think it is a big problem, I have met in my time in Freemasont literally thousands of brethren and have only come across 2 bullies! And whilst these two people were very unpleasant (one I had the pleasure of dealing with, the other was 'untouchable to me as a junior so got away with certain things for a long time) I just cannot see bullying as a problem that we have to deal with, there is plenty for us to deal with as it is.
Stewart, I am not hard arsed, in this case from my own personal experience this is just not a problem, however I will repeat, one bully is one too many!
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bod
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Post by bod on Jul 1, 2005 6:24:13 GMT
Er, actually Steve, it was completely ambiguous as to which group you were referring to - but thanks for the clarification.
Stewart, I hope it has become a lot clearer to you through this thread that the incidents that you have highlighted are very few and far between, and should not be exagerated in the hope of scoring cheap points - the social clubbers don't spoil freemasonry for anyone - they get what they want out of it and put a lot back in. It's the sociopaths and those that presume to place themselves in a position of superiority, whether real or imagined, and spout off on their own beliefs and views in a dogmatic and hectoring manner that spoil it, and they need to do a lot of 'internal work'.
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Post by a on Jul 1, 2005 6:33:49 GMT
Stewart, I hope it has become a lot clearer to you through this thread that the incidents that you have highlighted are very few and far between, and should not be exagerated in the hope of scoring cheap points Bod, cheap points! A little snide and unmasonic don't you think? You appear to still be making assumptions about me. Please stop this. I guess that all of the accounts that I have been given over the years are lies then? Why don't you support your brothers by helping to cure, instead of appearing to support the bullies by covering up in denial?
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bod
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Post by bod on Jul 1, 2005 7:06:27 GMT
Stewart - stop being so sensitive - I did not accuse you of attempting to score cheap points, please accept that you are not the centre of the universe and move on. Can you give me a true and accurate figure of how many separate incidents you have had related to you first hand by those on the receiving end? I would love to know - and please exclude any second hand relaying of stories - I want first hand accounts, and how many.
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Post by a on Jul 1, 2005 7:17:05 GMT
Stewart - stop being so sensitive Sensitivity can be a strength, so I will not stop being sensitive.You didYou are still making assumptions about me, please be more respectful, - I am not here to be abused and bullied by you.Yes, but for accuracy I would need to go through my files and check. I would however prefer to do this with Mr Morrow as opposed to you. Why? Because he has the power to investigate and to act on them. Also I am beginning to question your judgement on me.
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bod
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Post by bod on Jul 1, 2005 7:23:29 GMT
Stewart
In all the time I have had the misfortune to read your posts you have never sunk as low as you have at this point. You chose to interpret the posting I made as directed towards you - incredibly narcisistic - not to mention wrong. You have frequently used every possible form of evasion and equivocation when asked by me and others to qunatify and qualify the information you supposedly have, but each time you refuse and retreat behind a self protecting wall from which you lean over the parapet long enough to snipe - but not long enough to engage. My motiviation is in getting a short sighted individual to remove the blinkers of prejudice that colour his world and accept that others viewpoints are equally valid, something you continually refuse to do. I have not bullied you once - yet again you are twisting words to suit your agenda, and it is sad to see that you feel it necessary to descend to such levels to reinforce your arguments.
I am dissapointed Stewart, but not entirely surprised.
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Post by taylorsman on Jul 1, 2005 9:49:34 GMT
Both are "partly in the right and partly in the wrong", like the Men of Hindustan in the old poem. (see below)
Six Wise Men of Hindustan
There were six men of Hindustan, to learning much inclined, Who went to see an elephant, though all of them were blind, That each by observation might satisfy his mind.
The first approached the elephant, and happening to fall Against his broad and sturdy side, at once began to bawl, "This mystery of an elephant is very like a wall."
The second, feeling of the tusk, cried, "Ho, what have we here, So very round and smooth and sharp? To me 'tis mighty clear, This wonder of an elephant is very like a spear."
The third approached the elephant, and happening to take The squirming trunk within his hands, thus boldly up and spake, "I see," quoth he, "the elephant is very like a snake."
The fourth reached out an eager hand, and felt above the knee, "What this most wondrous beast is like is very plain" said he, "'Tis clear enough the elephant is very like a tree."
The fifth who chanced to touch the ear said, "E'en the blindest man Can tell what this resembles most; deny the fact who can; This marvel of an elephant is very like a fan."
The sixth no sooner had begun about the beast to grope, Than seizing on the swinging tail that fell within his scope; "I see," said he, "the elephant is very like a rope."
So six blind men of Hindustan disputed loud and long, Each in his own opinion exceeding stiff and strong; Though each was partly in the right, they all were in the wrong![/b]
Yes, there IS Bullying in Freemasonry especially at Craft Level and to a lesser extent in RA, (I have never come across it nor heard it being alleged in the Higher Degrees). I would also say that it is the exception not the rule and for every Thug in an Apron who is a DC/ Perceptor or a "Mighter than Thou" Secretary there are plenty of Brethren in those offices who perform with skill but courtesy and compassion and who are a pleasure to know and work with. However, it is the Bully who will be remembered when the nice guy is but a name on a Lodge Board or an old Summons.
Now we all have our own threshold on what we consider to be bullying and what we will brush aside or ignore or even not notice. I would say I am more likely to react than Bod but far less so than Stewart to some "robust" retort. My biggest objection is to those who act above their Rank and outwith their powers and those who use the Rank they may have to sarcastically put down some other Officer or Member who cannot give back as good as they have been given owing to the postion of the bully. I have been on the receiving end of both in a Masonic context. Personally I would have slung both of those men out of The Craft on their ar5es , or used them to re-enact the Antient Drama with them in the role of HAB. Others might have brushed them off with a "Oh it's just his way" or "He didn't mean anything personally by it" , but that isn't good enough for an Organisation which prides itself on Fraternity.
I feel that Grand Lodge (UGLE) must look into such matters and if blatant examples are discovered and proved make an example "pour encourager les autres". Maybe the role of the DC/ Perceptor needs to be re-appraised with guidelines issued and I personally feel less emphasis in rote learned perfection might defuse the situation in many cases. I would rather a Brother subsituted his own word where he needed or even read from a crib sheet and did it well and enjoyed what he did, rather than endured it and was miserable to please some "Sergeant Major DC".
If we don't address such problems the Craft will be the loser. The post WW2 generation who were prepared to put up with that sort of thing, their Wartime Forces/ National Service experiences having exposed them to much worse at the hands of sadistic NCOs, are dying off and the men who followed them and their sons especially will not put up with such behaviour and will vote with their feet.
Bod and Stewart, I think you should beg to differ here. I am more inclined to Stewart's viewpoint on this matter but feel that a dead horse is being flogged between the two of you. Let harmony prevail!
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Post by Proton on Sept 3, 2005 12:28:30 GMT
I quite agree with your commentary Taylorsman. I do feel that the only way is to stand up to these individuals as and when they become overbearing, as I would put it. As I too have had the experience of such an individuals throughout my lifelong experience in masonry. In fact we do have such an individual who applies such tactics in one of my lodges. We deal with him in a special way. Sidelining does assist. But, as Taylorsman states and I agree, that it is strange that bullying exists to a greater extent in the Craft and lesser in the side degrees. I often think that a bullies behaviour is really due to a loss of power and/or status that they used to enjoy whilst in employment, and they try out their tactics on innocent individuals in honourable organisations like masonry. This is based upon the experience that I have of the bully that I have mentioned. They need to encourage and complement more rather than use the stick too much. Perhaps their use of the stick is because that was the way they were taught. It is their way forward, and they know no better. I know of an LOI where members got bollocked if they did not learn their lines. I was not unsurprised when two brethren of that lodge resigned after such a disgusting and disgraceful experience. Sadly there is sometimes only one way of getting the message through. These poisonous chalices need to be contained and if possible emptied. But I appreciate that it is not easy. Proton
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Post by mrmason on Sept 6, 2005 15:59:31 GMT
I have to admit I've never seen any bullying at any meetings that I've been to.
Stewart, Could I ask what instigated you to ask UGLE to sort out bullying in 2003.
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Post by a on Sept 6, 2005 16:28:11 GMT
Bob
I was appauled at the number of bulling cases that I had heard about, as well as those that were being reported on tfm back then, including the chap who had the courage to talk about his assault in Lodge, where he was the one who had to leave.(I think from memory).
I know that this may be difficult to understand, but I really do feel for Freemasonry in a way that I suspect that few do. Its future is very important to me, in a way that I can only rationalise by talking about multiple lifetimes. Back then I did not understand any of this esoteric stuff, I just worked from my heart, followed my guts, and did what I could.
I had hoped that the UGLE powers that be would act to eradicate this form of darkness from its lodges.
I guess that a final straw was reached at the time in terms of hearing about further cases of alleged bullying, and similar alleged abuses of position.
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Post by taylorsman on Sept 6, 2005 17:56:43 GMT
I haven't seen anyone thumped, kicked in the privates, or slapped at a Masonic Meeting (No, I don't mean a Scots Third at which I have had the honour of being the Demonstration Candidate), but an actual physcial assault by one Freemason upon another either in the Temple or at the Festive Board or in the Bar. I have however both seen and experienced Verbal and Psychological Bullying.
Alas to some men, albeit a few, the fine words they repeat in Lodge are no more than that "Fine Words" and lip service only is paid to them , with no wish to comprehend far less to comply with the sentiments they mouth. It reminds me of kids who learn a song in French or German but have no understanding of the words they are singing nor any wish to have it, it is sufficient to repeat them parrot fashion to get the Gold Star.
Now if the bully is just another ordinary member then that may be no great problem but if he holds an Office with some Power to it such as DC or Secretary or an Acting Provincial Rank or is a PM of many years and influence then it can be a hard situation for the victim. There is often nobody to turn to, the WM, unless a man of strong will, is only King for a Year, he Reigns not Rules and is probably more concerned with getting the Three Degrees and Installation of his Successor as good as he can and possibly with the Ladies Night in his year to become involved and may well not wish to upset the Old Guard. If the offender is in with the "in crowd" at Province then the victim will be isolated and often will have no recourse but to resign from that Lodge and join another where such behaviour does not occur.
So what is non physical bullying? That depends on the victim, remarks that some thick skinnned types would call "Banter" and brush aside can be deeply hurtfull to others. I have seen a man, not myself, try his best to learn a difficult piece of Ritual (why don't we just cut the cackle and allow it to be read and thus remove one weapon from the bullies?), but not get it quite right. In the bar he was treated like a schoolboy who had to do failed his Latin Prep at the hands of a harsh teacher. This wrecked his self confidence for ages afterwards. I have been shouted at in the bar after a Meeting and in front of my guests over a petty and insignificant infringement of the Rules by a very new Brother who knew no better. I was even phoned at home by one bully who DEMANDED that I attend a Meeting when I had already given my apologies to the WM and these had been accepted. I told him where to get off! (and in no uncertain terms) I have heard of other cases of hazing or ignoring a man in the Bar or at the FB, stage whispering in his presence, name calling and other put downs.
Alas, there is a general inclination to either say that "This simply does not happen" a fatuous "head in the sands" answer or to tell the victim to "Join another Lodge", which may solve his immediate problem but leaves the Bully happily in place to continue on someone else.
Thankfully as many will no doubt say, it is not a BIG problem, most Lodges are happy and a pleasure to attend and are filled with decent chaps but there are still too many bullies around in The Craft, a nasty irony give that the First of our Grand Principles is "Brotherly Love". It is also ridiculous that an activity which should be pleasing to attend and which is very quite expensive down here in London and the Home Counties even if only in Craft, can be made a torment buy the actions of a few who really do not belong therein.
Finally, unlike Stewart who tries to see good in everyone, I have seldom found any decency in a bully and the last one I encountered in a physical sense, (NOT a Mason I hasten to add) got my fist rammed into his solar plexus and was left doubled up and writhing on the floor like a sprayed insect . Not the intellectual approach, I had tried that and failed, but infinitely more satisfying and satisfactory as he kept out of my life thereafter and bothered me no more.
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Post by wntrwolf on Aug 11, 2006 0:47:04 GMT
my Zaida was a mason back in the 60's. He was an RCMP officer and was a member of the masonic degree team. He had some problems with the secretary of the lodge. Both of my grandparents felt at the time and still do today that he was discriminated because of his Jewish faith.
They had reciepts of his paying his dues many many times and when he moved to a different town and was still mail ordering his dues the secretary would send all of his correspondence to a different town and not the proper one. They both called again and again with the proper address. In the end my grandfather was expelled from the lodge for non payment of dues. He even showed the secretary the reciepts of payments being sent via the mail and being recieved to no end.
He never rejoined another lodge after that even though he said he lived his live according to masonic beliefs and spoke well and fondly of Freemasonry. The lodge in the town he had moved to had heard about what had happened and knew the secretary of the other lodge well and offered many times throughout his life to get him to return to the lodge.
when he passed away he was given a masonic funeral/rcmp funeral its was very touching and very powerful.
My grandmother warns me about all the time that just because one is a mason doesnt mean they are all golden hearted.
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ruffashlar
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Lodge Milncroft No. 1515 (GLoS), Govanhill Royal Arch Chapter 523 (S.G.R.A.C.S.)
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Post by ruffashlar on Aug 21, 2006 4:42:14 GMT
I have a close friend, an Englishwoman and an atheist, whose father is a vicar in the Church of England. Knowing of my Masonic membership, she told me of a time before her father entered holy orders. He was a policeman in an English town where a coercive tradition had grown up of effectively compulsory Masonic initiation upon all joining PCs. His experience of Masonic bullying there was so extreme that he turned his back upon it and upon all his obligations. So much so that my friend is assuredly quite as perfectly au fait with the tokens as if she were Elizabeth St Leger herself. Indeed, she'd probably do well enough to pass one or two inattentive Deacons of my acquaintance - if it weren't for one salient fact which ought to bring them to their senses.
Apart from that, she has no interest in the Craft. The closeness of our friendship is assuredly cemented by other things we have in common, a bond of almost unique character. Thanks to which, I have had occasion to meet her father, and find him a thoroughly decent man. but were his experience of the Craft to have been different, he might still be a serving policeman, and an ornament to our ancient fraternity.
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