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Post by tws on Aug 11, 2007 21:03:01 GMT
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." - Pogo
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Post by lauderdale on Aug 11, 2007 21:26:57 GMT
There is a French Working where the Initiate is told that he will be shown his greatest enemy. He is then turned round and looks in a mirror!
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Aug 11, 2007 22:36:50 GMT
Excellenty well put. Especially the observation that the enemy is within us, as well as is the good. This reality is why I believe, rather strongly, that good and evil are two halves of the same thing. As above, so below. And those who have eyes to see, etc. `When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.' What the Zoroastrians believe, Ormuzd and Ahriman continually warring for control.
I have found in my own 54 years that Pride, Ambition and Competition are the "Three Ruffians" that must be confronted and subdued. Alas they are the easiest to be activated within us and used against the Greater Good. As the ordeal of the 3° illustrates, our working tools may be used for good and evil. That does not make them good or evil. For instance, the same piece of rope may be used by a lynch mob or as a life line. Likewise, ambition may be applied selfishly or be used as a means of motivation for the greater good: The difference lies not in the rope or in the ambition, as such, it is in the intent. Good and evil have a moral, metaphysical reality as mutually exclusive standards. To say one believes an action or a position is good (even where it may have unfortunate, unintended consequences), is to say one believes its underlying intent is life affirming; to say one believes it is evil (as distinct from mistaken or misguided), is to say much, much more than that one believes it to be bad in relation to some mundane matter: Rather, it is to say one believes its underlying intent is to devalue or degrade life. As for objecting to accusations of evil indicating a weakness in one's position, I suggest that such accusations are themselves debate stoppers. Once something is said to be evil, that's it: End of discussion! A great way of avoiding the weakness of one's own position. I can accept with equanimity that someone considers an action or position of mine to be mistaken, misguided, bad or plain wrong: However, I cannot see how I can regard an accusation of evil (especially from a Brother Mason) as being other than the very worst sort of ad hominem attack, in which the offender appears to presume to know my mind is inclined towards evil (at least in this instance) and, by that presumption, strikes at my honour and indeed at the very core of my being.
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Aug 11, 2007 22:43:28 GMT
There is a French Working where the Initiate is told that he will be shown his greatest enemy. He is then turned round and looks in a mirror! I have been told this is common on the Continent and have witnessed an exemplification of a Dutch ceremony (from a mainstream Constitution) in which it was used. Gnothi seauton / Nosce te ipsum / Know thyself
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imakegarb
Member
One wee, sleeket, cowran, tim'rous beastie
Posts: 3,573
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Post by imakegarb on Aug 12, 2007 20:09:06 GMT
I can accept with equanimity that someone considers an action or position of mine to be mistaken, misguided, bad or plain wrong: However, I cannot see how I can regard an accusation of evil (especially from a Brother Mason) as being other than the very worst sort of ad hominem attack, in which the offender appears to presume to know my mind is inclined towards evil (at least in this instance) and, by that presumption, strikes at my honour and indeed at the very core of my being. I do not believe anyone here has presumed to know your mind, let alone to believe it is inclined toward evil. I do, however, see evidence in your words that you've decided this has been done. My experience is that, once an individual has gotten an idea, such as this, into their head, it can be very difficult to convince them it simply is not the case. I often will give a try but, if I fail, I seldom keep trying and, instead, I allow them to think what they will and to nourish whatever slight they feel they've suffered. For though my experience is that they will often act upon this slight, I know I can be responsible only for myself and can only hope they will come to understand, though they don't have to.
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Aug 12, 2007 20:37:14 GMT
I do not believe anyone here has presumed to know your mind, let alone to believe it is inclined toward evil. For you to presume to know the "evil intent" underlying my position, you would need to "know" my mind. ...to say one believes it [an action or position] is evil (as distinct from mistaken or misguided), is to say much, much more than that one believes it to be bad in relation to some mundane matter: Rather, it is to say one believes its underlying intent is to devalue or degrade life. BTW. I do not regard an accusation of "evil" as being a "slight." A "slight," as the name suggests, is a trivial thing. However, I concede you have not yet been be charged to, "...defend a M.M.'s character, as well in his absence as in his presence, and will ever regard his interests as dearly as my own." I know I can be responsible only for myself ... I live in hope—Know thyself.
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Post by tws on Aug 13, 2007 2:37:55 GMT
I would never dream of dismissing your position so simply and unfairly. Bro., Karen, You have, however, described it as being "evil"!? Bro. Tamrin. I do not understand why this issue has gone on as long on this thread as it has. After carefully reading all the posts, the above quote is the first mention made of "evil" in the entire thread. You seem to be the one who first raised it. I find it ironic that, as a champion of womens rights in Freemasonry, that you have chosen to target one of the nicest and most thoughtful Masons that it has been my pleasure to come to know on these various e-forums, who happens to be a woman! And as to why, I can only come to the conclusion that it is because she had the temerity to disagree with your position. I ask you, for the sake of harmony, and as a Brother in the Craft, to please stop this unnessesary feud.
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Aug 13, 2007 3:15:56 GMT
Bro. TWS,
Bro. Karen first raised the issue on the forum and, in my raising it on this thread, I was responding to one of her posts where it seemed relevant. I expect I will do so again if it again seems relevant. I am not sure how much graver an accusation can be than one of “evil” and I remain deeply offended. I have felt this issue has stood between Karen and me since she first levelled it at my position (not simply having "the temerity to disagree" with it) and I do not consider that others have any business in telling me to simply disregard such a grave accusation: If I move on, it will be when I am ready. Others on the forum have disagreed with my position: Only Karen has described it as "evil" (to be "evil," an action or position must be intentionally so). In objecting to her having made the accusation, I did so to Karen as an individual, rather than as a woman, per se. I regard this approach as being consistent with my position on women’s rights.
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Post by penfold on Aug 13, 2007 9:17:59 GMT
All, please remember this is only the internet and not real life, sometimes it helps to count to ten and take a deep breath of perspective before responding.
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Post by wayseer on Aug 13, 2007 9:18:42 GMT
Bro Tamrin - it is obvious you have matter of disagreement with Bro Karen - there is a Masonic way of dealing with such a situation. Need I remind you? If you cannot settle your difference amicably then it might be better is one or both of you retire than the harmony of the Lodge be disturbed ....
Personally I would not like to see that happen. So may I urge to you settle your differences. You are both well respected contributors to the forum and it disturbs me to see you in the this way. I think you are both 'talking past each other' as I cannot accept that either of you are anything other than honourable members of our Ancient Institution.
May Mercy and Justice be your collective guide.
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Aug 13, 2007 9:41:39 GMT
Would anyone else regard an accusation of evil from a Brother Mason and forumite as being offensive?
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Post by whistler on Aug 13, 2007 10:04:48 GMT
Tamrin I am not sure how much graver an accusation can be than one of “evil” and I remain deeply offended. Get over it don't get hung up on those things - Many things I do, make lots on the religious right consider me evil - does it worry me - not one bit that is their problem. I can show you some folk who think the things Russell talks about is pure evil evil I bet he doesn't care I have a friend who many years ago set up a table in a shopping mall and was giving palm readings - he noticed things had gone quiet and on looking up found the congregation from a local Church had formed a ring around him declaring that they were saving people from his evil practices - Just smile and wish those well who think you are evil - Don't forget many of you Australians who came out with shackles round their ankle were considered evil - Might add some of your League Refs are still really evil
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Post by lauderdale on Aug 13, 2007 10:42:13 GMT
If I had been that bothered about the many insults that have been thrown at me in my 54 years, to my face, behind my back and on various Fora on the Internet I would have jumped in a river years ago.
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Post by brandt on Aug 13, 2007 12:05:44 GMT
I am just a little disappointed that this thread, which I found to be quite productive, got derailed. Would it be possible to separate the two subjects?
Brandt
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Post by penfold on Aug 13, 2007 12:28:50 GMT
No need - just get back on track, force the issue if you have to brandt by making a post that is on topic....
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Post by brandt on Aug 13, 2007 13:27:02 GMT
Point taken Brother, I was just trying to avoid being rude.
Brandt
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Post by penfold on Aug 13, 2007 13:31:00 GMT
Nice man!
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Post by brandt on Aug 13, 2007 13:37:02 GMT
Tell nobody about that. People will start to expect things out of me.
Brandt
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Post by brandt on Aug 13, 2007 13:46:03 GMT
Brethren, I was thinking about this discussion last night in relation to the "hierarchy in man." There is an internal and external hierarchy that we work with. The external hierarchy is generally composed of several individuals, this gives rise to governance. The hierarchy in man is a bit more subtle. I am interested in how these two hierachies relate and how we may rectify any problem between the two. I don't think that it is entirely healthy, on the spiritual - psychological side of things, to entirely sublimate the inner hierarchy in favor of the external hierarchy. The same could be said for submerging the external hierarchy into the inner hierarchy of an individual. Care and balance must be maintained. Where is rambling pertinent you ask? Well, regarding the content of this particular thread we see an obvious disconnect between the Mason (me for example) and the Fraternity.
Brandt
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Post by tws on Aug 13, 2007 13:54:11 GMT
If each individual Mason tended to the hierarchy within himself, then there would be no conflict with the external, as all would be in harmony with the all.
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