jmd
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Post by jmd on Sept 19, 2007 9:52:35 GMT
I sincerely hope, Bro. thedixiemason, that your sense of morality transcends the literal bounds of any book, for otherwise, any situation faced not therein dealt by its all-too-human author(s) will be rather difficult to deal with. Or worse, certain sections of the community will be considered worthy of death by stoning. That we do not condone such deaths shows that we indeed make ethical judgements even in contradiction to a volume we may otherwise hold sacred. Ethics cannot be codified - such would be, in my view, an oximoron that also diminishes the ethical faculties we need to develop with situations at hand. I realise it was for a different purpose, but perhaps you may be interested to read something I wrote some time back: On certification, the codification of ethics, and reading Tarot (may not be of general interest, of course). By the way, I have no problems personally holding the Tanakh and the NT as sacred (but not to be read literally as admonitions for action) - but would not want to impose the same on anyone else not similarly inclined. And for many, there is no book - let's not fall into the misunderstanding muslims tend to have of Christians: we are not a 'people of the book'.
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Post by corab on Sept 19, 2007 11:58:26 GMT
Okay, this is obviously a subject that touches on deeply held beliefs, but all the same I'm going to remind anyone who cares to respond to this to subdue their passions -- I won't get into a slinging match over this.
First off, Dixie, in co-masonic lodges, VSL stands for Volume of the Sacred Lore, not Law. Puts a whole different perspective on things.
Secondly, I don't need my Brother-to-be to base his/her Obligation in fear of Divine Retribution. I am happy to take him/her on his/her word.
The Word of a mason is exactly that, and no more: the Word of a Brother -- not "the Word of a mason inspired by fear of Divine Retribution". I choose to trust in the good in my fellow man, and I fail to understand how one who would profess to put his trust in God in all times of danger would deny the presence of the Divine Good the same infallable God must have put in each man and woman, if indeed He created them in His image.
What is the worth of a mason's Word, if we cannot accept it unless it is underpinned by religious dogma?
Thirdly, I am a great proponent of the Blank Pages approach (no points for having guessed that! ;D) It is used in some of our French lodges -- they place a blank book on top of our International Constitution. I like it -- a lot. It says "Welcome to your new life; now go a write the story of your life" to me. It also very aptly symbolises the significant changes wrought in us while we go through our (Craft) degrees -- a new book to record your new guiding principles in.
Fourthly -- I consider it to be a fallacy (and an offensive one at that!) that only the religious should consider themselves bound by morals. I don't need religious dogma to know the difference between right and wrong, nor do I need the fear of hell and damnation to do what is right and abstain from what is wrong.
I do what is right because I love my fellow creatures.
S&F,
Cora
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Post by gaslight on Sept 19, 2007 12:35:10 GMT
Have you a link to any such lists? I wonder how they parse which ones are divine and/or revealed and which aren't? Sorry, I don't have one bookmarked. I have a vague recollection of one tucked away on a GL website, but can't remember which GL. However, maybe the following link will give you some idea of what I had in mind — it's from Bro Bessel's encyclopedic website. bessel.org/vsllist.htmIt illustrates a couple of the points I tried to make. You'll note that there are blanks next to some religions. On similar lists I've seen calls for knowledgeable visitors to 'complete' the list, which assumes that each religion has, or ought to have (that sounds like something out of the ritual) a VSL. The other point is about some of the books listed. Sure, they're used by their respective religions, but that's about all. For followers of those religions the idea of putting the book on an altar, placing your hands on it, and then taking a binding oath is, well, ludicrous. Maybe even offensive. FWIW, I've heard that at least one religion forbids putting anything on an open copy of its sacred text, which would make the taking of a Masonic obligation very tricky indeed.
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Post by leonardo on Sept 19, 2007 14:14:39 GMT
Okay, this is obviously a subject that touches on deeply held beliefs, but all the same I'm going to remind anyone who cares to respond to this to subdue their passions -- I won't get into a slinging match over this. First off, Dixie, in co-masonic lodges, VSL stands for Volume of the Sacred Lore, not Law. Puts a whole different perspective on things. Secondly, I don't need my Brother-to-be to base his/her Obligation in fear of Divine Retribution. I am happy to take him/her on his/her word. The Word of a mason is exactly that, and no more: the Word of a Brother -- not "the Word of a mason inspired by fear of Divine Retribution". I choose to trust in the good in my fellow man, and I fail to understand how one who would profess to put his trust in God in all times of danger would deny the presence of the Divine Good the same infallable God must have put in each man and woman, if indeed He created them in His image. What is the worth of a mason's Word, if we cannot accept it unless it is underpinned by religious dogma? Thirdly, I am a great proponent of the Blank Pages approach (no points for having guessed that! ;D) It is used in some of our French lodges -- they place a blank book on top of our International Constitution. I like it -- a lot. It says "Welcome to your new life; now go a write the story of your life" to me. It also very aptly symbolises the significant changes wrought in us while we go through our (Craft) degrees -- a new book to record your new guiding principles in. Fourthly -- I consider it to be a fallacy (and an offensive one at that!) that only the religious should consider themselves bound by morals. I don't need religious dogma to know the difference between right and wrong, nor do I need the fear of hell and damnation to do what is right and abstain from what is wrong. I do what is right because I love my fellow creatures. S&F, Cora Wonderful post. I agree with the comments expressed entirely. Nothing to add other than that.
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Post by thedixiemason on Sept 19, 2007 19:36:14 GMT
Whether it is "Law" or "Lore" doesn't really matter. How do blank pages conform to the definition of Lore? They can't.. lore1 (lôr, lōr) pronunciation n.
1. Accumulated facts, traditions, or beliefs about a particular subject. See synonyms at knowledge. 2. Knowledge acquired through education or experience. 3. Archaic. Material taught or learned.
[Middle English, from Old English lār.]
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jmd
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Post by jmd on Sept 19, 2007 23:03:05 GMT
As I wrote on page 1 reply #13, Bro. thedixiemason, "A Book of Blank Pages does of course contain much of symbolic intent (even if not my preferred option) - after all, one may thereby symbolically 'insert' therein whichever 'sacred' text one wishes, without the same imposed on any other brother within the Lodge."
We should recall that we use each working tool and each light in a symbolic manner... perhaps, by the contemplation of a VSL of blank pages, a Bro. would gain more of its symbolic intent! For a Christian, for example, its emptiness would only add to the contemplative mind the content of the Gospels!
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Post by palmereldritch on Sept 20, 2007 1:17:58 GMT
Have you a link to any such lists? I wonder how they parse which ones are divine and/or revealed and which aren't? Sorry, I don't have one bookmarked. I have a vague recollection of one tucked away on a GL website, but can't remember which GL. However, maybe the following link will give you some idea of what I had in mind — it's from Bro Bessel's encyclopedic website. bessel.org/vsllist.htmIt illustrates a couple of the points I tried to make. You'll note that there are blanks next to some religions. On similar lists I've seen calls for knowledgeable visitors to 'complete' the list, which assumes that each religion has, or ought to have (that sounds like something out of the ritual) a VSL. The other point is about some of the books listed. Sure, they're used by their respective religions, but that's about all. For followers of those religions the idea of putting the book on an altar, placing your hands on it, and then taking a binding oath is, well, ludicrous. Maybe even offensive. FWIW, I've heard that at least one religion forbids putting anything on an open copy of its sacred text, which would make the taking of a Masonic obligation very tricky indeed. Hey, thanks. I find the one title "Unspecified Gnostic Text" curious...I wonder what that means? I was going to ask just that earlier - any Gnostic texts ever used to anyone's knowledge? The only one I know of is the Gospel of Thomas. I also meant to ask if any "edited" versions of synoptic gospels were used, such as the one Thomas Jefferson did - he expunged all the supernatural elements, etc: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible I'm sure there are other examples of this, although I don't know of any. Some newer, more correct translations done after KJV I know set off some people so much that they burned them, but I wonder if any of those were/are used - I forget the translation that resulted in that. I find all of this of extreme interest because if there is a literal interpretation of whatever the VSL is, I have pangs of conscience in doing that on, say, a King James version of the bible, as I know many of the problems/editing/intentional mistranslation, etc. of it and couldn't say that I could in good conscience, swear on a literal interpretation on probably any translation of the Bible. I've listened to too many talks of Biblical scholars like the Bible Geek tearing it to bits. However, if it's more a symbolic swearing on the interpretation one has of any VSL, including KJV, then I guess I'd be okay with that. To explain my conundrum, I don't think the Bible is sort of useful literal guide on diet (as came up in the vegetarian thread - fascinating stuff, but I don't know of verses that tell me RDA of vitamins or fat/carb ratios, etc., so I think I'll ignore it when it comes to diet, thank you very much. ) or mixed fabrics, or animal sacrifices, slavery, etc... Literally interpreting and swearing upon it as so I would find immoral; swearing on the symbolism and what the Bible means to *me*, I would find okay, if that makes any sense. Is the symbolism view the mainstream one?
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Post by wayseer on Sept 20, 2007 1:35:21 GMT
As a Buddhist I would not swear any allegiance on any VSL that consisted of a book of blank pages. Actually, 'book of blank pages' is an oxymoron - there can be no such thing. A 'book' implies something - a communication of something that is contained on pages - it therefore 'means' something. 'Blank', well, means just that, blank, zip, nil, nothing. So, a 'book of blank pages' means nothing - and if it means nothing then the Obligation may well mean 'nothing'.
Further - to suggest that somehow ethics are 'written on our heart' is just as meaningless - quite simple they are not - there is nothing 'innate' about ethics - it is a learned process however subtle that process may be.
Political correctness - the fear of drawing boundries on the chance someone may be offended, is, by its own definition, not 'ethical' - it is political.
It is also rather obvious that any sense of ethics one might develop must transcend any book, rule or law. Those who maintain that rules are rules have not seen the Light and they are legion. I do not propose that you and I join them. But we do need a check and balance in our life. I have found it rewarding to reread some of those rules and laws contained in the various VSL - just to touch base again. Yes, such writings are antiquated but they still hold powerful messages are we wander from them at our peril. Those of us here would not find that process las imiting as those who are still labouring under the darkness of their own narrow convictions.
And, Yes, I too can pick holes in any VSL - Buddhist ones included - but that's what I would be doing - picking holes. Any text in limited as it is relative to the era of its genesis - context is just as important as the words written on the page. The 'message' contained in such texts is veiled as many here draw our attention to from time to time.
May I pick up on a couple of other points raised in posts.
The VSL is religious - as is Freemasonry. I know that opens up another hotly contested issue. Religion, capital 'R', is as religious, small 'r', as is Masonry. While mainstream Religions have particular ways of doing things and certain rules such should not unnecessarily confuse the issue - most of us are blinded by the predominate Western Religion, football, sorry, Christianity. Freemasonry is religious whether such is acknowledged or not.
Which leaves me wondering when I read -
What is the worth of a mason's Word, if we cannot accept it unless it is underpinned by religious dogma?
Quite a lot I would have thought. But then perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps all this time all those words of Mason's based on some religious philosophy have meant nought. Perhaps Courts and Parliaments have all been mislead - Presidents and Popes have lied. Well, given the frailty of human endeavour such could be the case but I had hoped that it all might have meant something deeper - an acknowledgment at least of that frailty.
But then, perhaps I'm just showing my age. Perhaps there is a new genetically superior race out there of which I am unaware who do not need VSL or any other ethical manual. Perhaps, someone could point them out to me.
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Post by gaslight on Sept 20, 2007 1:40:24 GMT
Literally interpreting and swearing upon it as so I would find immoral; swearing on the symbolism and what the Bible means to *me*, I would find okay, if that makes any sense. Is the symbolism view the mainstream one? I can't speak for the mainstream view, but the rituals used in my mainstream lodges take the literal view. This is one of the problems I have with the bring-your-own VSL approach. A candidate may bring along a copy of his own sacred text and take his obligation upon it, but just a few minutes later he's going to hear VSL references that assume use of a text that contains unerring standards of truth and justice, divine precepts, etc. One of my lodges has an optional VSL Presentation lecture that refers to the publication of the KJV. That could easily be cut if another VSL were used, but the references embedded in the ritual are not so easily removed.
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Post by wayseer on Sept 20, 2007 1:42:23 GMT
Is the symbolism view the mainstream one?
It's all symbol - even the words on this page.
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Post by thedixiemason on Sept 20, 2007 2:24:47 GMT
Bro. Wayseer, post #47 was very well put.
Another thing that non-mainstreamers might want to consider is the fact that the Masonic legends are based on the Holy Bible. The building of King Solomon's temple is not found on blank pages, or in texts of other religions, it is found in the Bible.
There are other mysteries of the Craft that can only be found in the Bible... to ignore it is to rob yourself of that light.
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Post by thedixiemason on Sept 20, 2007 2:27:40 GMT
Just out of curiosity, when we circumambulate the candidates around the lodge in the different degrees, the SD is reciting three different scriptures, and the candidate should be paying attention to those scriptures. What do they say in an LDH lodge? Are those scriptures even pointed out?
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Post by maat on Sept 20, 2007 3:40:23 GMT
Wilmshurst, my hero. "Masonry, .. whilst not a religion, is consistent with and adaptable to any and every religion. But it is capable of going further. For an Order of Initiation (like the monastic Orders within the older Churches) is intended to provide a higher standard of instruction, a larger communication of truth and wisdom, than the elementary ones offered by public popular religion; and at the same time it requires more rigorous personal discipline and imposes much more exacting claims upon the mind and will of its adherents." www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/Wilmshurst_masonic_initiation_0.htmlMaat
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jmd
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Post by jmd on Sept 20, 2007 4:18:05 GMT
What is said in various degrees varies more from ritual to ritual than from constitution to constitution. In UGLV ritual (UGLV is in amity with UGLE and most US-based GLs), the SD does not recite any parts of the Bible, whether OT or NT.
I nonetheless agree that Freemasonry rests on a foundation of European culture, itself permeated with Christian, Roman and Greek views, and that the early rituals were replete with both Christian and OT words and references - many of which have been altered with time in many rituals as social conditions have changed.
This is something different to whether or not an actual book (or VSL) is used. Like Bro. wayseer, I entirely agree that numerous sacred (and non-sacred) philosophically and spiritually inclined books have much to teach - including providing fodder for the development of the moral faculty. This is distinct as to whether or not a book with blank pages is Masonically acceptable (which in any case, as I mentioned earlier, is not my personal preference: I prefer the usage of a Ruler, making the three Greater Lights the Compasses, Square, and Ruler).
I would also like, since it has been raised, to point to another aspect that needs to be carefully looked at in terms of Freemasonry Universal: Symbolic Masonry is based on the secret and sacred construction of a building, that in most constitutions focusses on the Hiramic Legend and the construction of King Solomon's Temple. This, however, need not be so in all cases. In fact, no direct reference to KS's Temple (nor to Hiram) need be part of the rituals - and have been told (though have no confirmation) that a number of rituals used in parts of Europe have no reference to KS's Temple, nor mention of Hiram Abiff.
Such cases show that we need to be careful to differentiate between our own local Masonic form and what is essentially Freemasonic, rather than overlayed (however enjoyable) additions.
The question remains as to whether there is a need, in a Masonic context, for the inclusion of a VSL - to which my personal answer, supported by actual lack of usage in some constitutions, is 'no'.
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Post by thedixiemason on Sept 20, 2007 4:18:07 GMT
The basic principles of Masonry can be applied to any religion, but the deeper meanings of Masonry are buried in the Holy Bible. Any you don't have to be Jewish or Christian to get those meanings out of those scriptures... you just have to believe in a Supreme Being.
But you will NEVER find them on blank pages.
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Post by thedixiemason on Sept 20, 2007 4:20:54 GMT
Once Masonry has been chopped up and twisted and all the sacred aspects removed, it is no longer Masonry. It is an empty shell.
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jmd
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Post by jmd on Sept 20, 2007 4:26:56 GMT
I see where we may be in fundamental disagreement, Bro thedixiemason: you (and others) see Freemasonry as intrinsically entwined with Judeo-Christianity, whereas I (and others) see the Judeo-Christian element as a reflection of the times and place in which Freemasonry arose and developed, but itself not intrinsic to Freemasonry per se.
As such, you (and others) see the removal of the Bible as a 'chopping up and twisting' of the ritual form, whereas I (and others) would see it as the removal of an overlay that does not intrinsically belong to Freemasonry.
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Post by thedixiemason on Sept 20, 2007 5:07:26 GMT
This discussion has really given me insight to the reasons why we do not allow atheist, or irreligious libertines to enter our lodges... Because they will never get it and deserve to be kept in the dark.
The attempt to make Masonry so universal as to please everyone has caused certain bodies to remove the heart of Masonry from the organization, and leave an empty shell.
I do not necessarily see Masonry entwined with Judaeo-Christianity, but I do KNOW that the Greatest Light in Masonry is the Holy Bible, and I KNOW that Freemasonry helps one to unlock the codes therein.
You have stripped out the keys to the Craft, and as a result, you are left with blank pages. Good job.
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Post by wayseer on Sept 20, 2007 5:31:26 GMT
Brethren - our ignorance of our own ignorance is the real enemy.
Let me add a Sufic story.
A bubbling Stream reached a desert and found that it could not cross - the water was disappearing into the sand quicker than the torrent behind could keep pace with the soakage. 'But, my destiny lies across the desert', wailed the Stream.
The Sands answered in their hidden tongue. ' The Wind crosses the desert and so can you'.
'But, Wind, can fly. I am limited to the ground', answered the Stream.
'You are limited in your thinking dear Steam. Allow Wind to carry you across the desert'.
'How can this happen?' asked the Stream.
The Sands explained how, through evaporation, the moisture of the Stream could be absorbed into the air and with the assistance of Wind carried across the desert and there on the other side released as rain to form a might river.
The Stream thought. The Sands, something of a mind reader, provided the answer the Stream's silent question. 'You must believe Steam. Believe or get sucked down into the sands forever and remain a quagmire'.
'But, will I be the same', went on Stream. 'Will I be the same as I am today?'.
'How can you remain the same?' The choice is not open to you.'
So Steam crossed the desert in the arms of the welcoming Wind, which gathered it slowly and carefully upward, and then let it down with gentle firmness, atop the mountains of a far-off land.
As Steam sped down the mountain gaining the strength of a might River it had a question. 'Why could I not reason this out myself, why did the Sands have to tell me?' What would have happened had I not listened to the Sands?'
The stream of life is written in the sands - the mere experience of life teaches us nothing.
I am paraphrasing Idries Shah.
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Post by leonardo on Sept 20, 2007 7:04:40 GMT
Wonderful wayseer.
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