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Post by gaslight on Sept 21, 2007 10:34:56 GMT
As regards "Being a Christian" to my knowledge Rose Croix over here requires that an applicant makes a Declaration of Support for the Christian Trinitarian Faith. There is no check on them attending any Church etc. I suppose in Theory a Jew or an Islamic could make such a Statement to obtain Perfection into the 18th Degree of the A&ASR but in real life I really doubt that this would occur, unless someone can prove to the contrary? Neither Rose Croix nor A&ASR, but on a back channel I'm watching exactly that situation develop. An order with a Christian requirement has been accepting declarations of Christian faith at face value, but someone decided to make an issue of it and asked for 'clarification' from the ruling body. The ruling body had little option but to suggest that a certificate of baptism would be appropriate.
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jmd
Member
fourhares.com
Posts: 1,081
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Post by jmd on Sept 21, 2007 11:15:11 GMT
A certificate of baptism? Since when does that decide whether one is a Christian or not? I personally know a number of Christians who are not baptised... nor, for that matter, was the Christian mystic Simone Weil!
And quite frankly, that is excessive paperwork that I would personally have a hard time obtaining (though duplicates of my confirmation papers may not be as difficult if I tried).
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Post by corab on Sept 21, 2007 11:35:21 GMT
There will be at least one Knight Templar present when Cora is Raised, possibly more More indeed -- make that two, possibly more. ;D
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Post by corab on Sept 21, 2007 11:38:00 GMT
Cora, that's a great day to be raised! I know! Bro:. Steve almost rolled off his chair when I told him*G* 700 years to the day ... oh boy. Most poignant -- wish him well for me. There's no 'if' about it, which is one of the reasons why I asked you -- thanks for the pointers; I hope I'll have enough wherewithal on the day to watch out for them! ;D
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Post by thedixiemason on Sept 21, 2007 19:09:09 GMT
Cora, What is next for you after being raised? Do you have a Royal Arch where you are?
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Post by corab on Sept 21, 2007 20:32:48 GMT
Cora, What is next for you after being raised? For me, personally, there is the conscious decision to leave degrees for what they are for the moment and dedicate myself the administration of my Federation. That is where I'm needed right now; degrees can wait. But as and when the time is right for me to look beyond the pale, Mark is first in line, then HRA, then KT in the Allied Degrees, and subsequently Rose Croix, and if called upon, Areopagus and beyond in the AASR. And perhaps even RoS, eh Bro:. Steve? ;D
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Post by leonardo on Sept 21, 2007 20:57:30 GMT
Cora, What is next for you after being raised? For me, personally, there is the conscious decision to leave degrees for what they are for the moment and dedicate myself the administration of my Federation. That is where I'm needed right now; degrees can wait. But as and when the time is right for me to look beyond the pale, Mark is first in line, then HRA, then KT in the Allied Degrees, and subsequently Rose Croix, and if called upon, Areopagus and beyond in the AASR. And perhaps even RoS, eh Bro:. Steve? ;D Cora, I take my hat off to you. So much to look forward to and all available within LDH. I hope to, God willing, eventually follow a similar path.
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Post by thedixiemason on Sept 21, 2007 21:04:51 GMT
Cora, The Mark is next here too, but all 4 (MM, PM, MEM, RAM) are under the Chapter of Royal Arch here. I don't guess you guys have Cryptic Masonry? (R&SM)
Leo, What's keeping you from "riding the goat?"
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Post by leonardo on Sept 21, 2007 21:08:20 GMT
Cora, The Mark is next here too, but all 4 (MM, PM, MEM, RAM) are under the Chapter of Royal Arch here. I don't guess you guys have Cryptic Masonry? (R&SM) Leo, What's keeping you from "riding the goat?" Saddle sore ;D
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Post by thedixiemason on Sept 21, 2007 21:10:21 GMT
Don't let that stop you... You can stand on its back like I did.
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Post by leonardo on Sept 21, 2007 21:12:51 GMT
Don't let that stop you... You can stand on its back like I did. Yes, I heard that's a good way to go
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Post by lauderdale on Sept 21, 2007 21:17:53 GMT
Dixie, we DO have R&SM, I was in it when in Male Only Freemasonry, but it is not worked under LDH. Additional Degrees in LDH. After the Three Craft Degrees A&ASR as I have said before is a Continuity via 18th Degree to 33rd Degree though few achieve it in our system and then after a lot of hard work and dedication. In the York Rite we have Mark, RAM, Royal Arch, KT and Royal Order of Scotland. Bro Cora, you would love ROS and you would look right Bonnie with the two Crossed sashes, one Red , one Green and an Apron with a tassel. You could wear a kilt as well! Noo there's a richt bonnie sicht! ;D
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Post by corab on Sept 21, 2007 21:37:51 GMT
Bro Cora, you would love ROS and you would look right Bonnie with the two Crossed sashes, one Red , one Green and an Apron with a tassel. You could wear a kilt as well! Noo there's a richt bonnie sicht! ;D Now Bro:. Steve, people will talk! ;D Red 'n' green sounds good to me ... There's Scottish ancestry in my hubby's maternal line; reckon I could find myself a kilt for a little known family by the name of ... Wallace?
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Post by corab on Sept 21, 2007 21:43:28 GMT
Cora, The Mark is next here too, but all 4 (MM, PM, MEM, RAM) are under the Chapter of Royal Arch here. Oh bum, forgot RAM, which we also have. Somehow it doesn't call all that loudly, but maybe in due time that will change, who knows. Degrees I'm really looking forward to are first and foremost HRA, then KT and RC. I'd be mad to say I'm looking forward to the administrative degrees, but ... ;D Haven't a clue; I defer to Bro:. Steve's superior experience in this respect.
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Post by thedixiemason on Sept 21, 2007 21:45:43 GMT
Does the LDH ROoS have a Provincial Grand Master under the same ROoS that I'm a member of, or is it different?
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Post by lauderdale on Sept 21, 2007 22:51:56 GMT
Different. We don't have Provinces so no PGM's (thankfully!)
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jmd
Member
fourhares.com
Posts: 1,081
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Post by jmd on Sept 23, 2007 11:22:54 GMT
In another thread ( Cf here), Bro wayseer implies what others have also here suggested: that the usage of a book with blank pages is somehow taking away and making a change for what appears no more than political correctness (I realise the other thread linked to had other aspects that leads to being cautious about wanting to make any alterations simply for the sake of political correctness). There are a number of issues I would like to take up with this, and as they relate specifically to the usage of the VSL in some rituals, I thought this thread would be more apt. The first is the connotation of 'political correctness' - this has become, at least here, a form of put-down when what is seen to be suggested is reduced to fanciful thoughts and merely going along with political fashion (I am not in the least suggesting, by the way, that Bro wayseer intended it this way). Perhaps on some occasions and by some individuals, it is no more than this. On the other hand, there are times that the point raised has both intrinsic merit as well as being 'politically correct' or enlightened. One should not dismiss something that is intrinsically correct just because it may also perchance be currently in political vogue: in some ways, if there is political vogue for a change to the higher ideal, then such times may be best to introduce such change, rather than await tides of alternate diminution of ideals popularly held. Secondly, the usage of blank pages may not in the least be seen as reaching to the lowest common denominator [LCD] (something Bro wayseer suggests in terms of a book of blank pages). Personally, I am happy using, for myself, either an actual Bible or a symbolic representation of the same (if a VSL is used). I would consider a book of blank pages to be, in my personal case, precisely the Tanakh and NT together... and perhaps indeed elements of other books I hold sacred! A Blank Book, in that sense, leads not to the LCD, but rather to the highest ideal as variously manifested in thousands of volumes that individuals may hold sacred. Even though I have said the above, I nonetheless do not consider that any VSL (whether Bible, Torah, or blank book) forms and essential part of Freemasonry. I suppose, like those Lodges (and GLs) that have a laïc orientation, I consider a person's religious inclination to be his or her private (and for some shifting) affair.
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Post by corab on Sept 23, 2007 12:00:00 GMT
I suppose, like those Lodges (and GLs) that have a laïc orientation, I consider a person's religious inclination to be his or her private (and for some shifting) affair. Precisely, Bro:. JMD -- freedom of conscience and total absence of dogma. That, from my point of view, has nothing to do with political correctness , and everything with the consistent execution of some of our landmarks: total absence of dogma, and absolute freedom of conscience. For me, personally, the landmark of total absence of dogma requires total absence of ... well, dogma! If I had my way, there would be none of this "Have you a belief in a Supreme Being" business; freedom of conscience as to how to answer the "In all times of danger ..." question, and subject to the candidate's preference, a blank book atop the International Constitution as VSL. S&F, Cora
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Post by gaslight on Sept 23, 2007 12:33:56 GMT
For me, personally, the landmark of total absence of dogma requires total absence of ... well, dogma! If I had my way, there would be none of this "Have you a belief in a Supreme Being" business; freedom of conscience as to how to answer the "In all times of danger ..." question, and subject to the candidate's preference, a blank book atop the International Constitution as VSL. The problem here is that any attempt to replace the Holy Bible with another volume will run foul of the principles of GL Recognition and the Aims and Relations of the Craft as agreed upon by the 'home' Grand Lodges of England, Ireland and Scotland. There's just no wiggle room: the VSL is defined as the Holy Bible, and the HB has to be open at all times while a lodge is in session. The same goes for the belief in a SB. According to the Aims and Relations: The first condition of admission into, and membership of, the Order is a belief in the Supreme Being. This is essential and admits of no compromise. I rather like Bro. JMD's suggestion of a Square, Compass and Ruler on the altar, but I can't imagine how the Craft could shift from the above-stated position to something as radical as that.
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Post by lauderdale on Sept 23, 2007 13:56:32 GMT
"The problem here is that any attempt to replace the Holy Bible with another volume will run foul of the principles of GL Recognition and the Aims and Relations of the Craft as agreed upon by the 'home' Grand Lodges of England, Ireland and Scotland."
Only a problem for those Masons and their GLs who NEED to be "Recognised" by the Home GLs but of little if any consequence whatsoever to those Masons and Masonic Bodies which neither desire nor require such "Recognition".
Frankly as our American Brethren would say "I could care less!"
As for this.
"The first condition of admission into, and membership of, the Order is a belief in the Supreme Being. This is essential and admits of no compromise."
I don't see that being any great concern to the Grand Orient of France which is still going strong long after UGLE and its cronies withdrew their "Recognition" . Freemasonry is alive and well outside of UGLE etc.
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