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Post by Stash on Nov 22, 2004 2:51:33 GMT
until fairly recently, it was assumed by practically everyone that the Templars were indeed evil I can't agree with that. Some or many have had such thoughts, but MOST people when they think of knights templar, they think of knights like you'd see on a king arthur animated tv show. That's not evil at all...and good enough for a superstition to start!!
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Post by Stash on Nov 29, 2004 6:27:55 GMT
I came across a piece from an extremely old Freemasons Quarterly Review (it refers to the inquisition)
"The sanguinary tribunals of the inquisitino have kept immured and led to the slaughter many an unfortunate Freemason, for daring to seek Light, Science, and Truth, where Darkness, Ignorance, and Falsehood held an arbitrary away! The auto da fe, which, under Philipe the Second, was almost quotidian, was instituted to indulge the fanaticism of a barbarous populace, or the capricious ambition of despotic rulers. Not many hyears ago, a freemason of the name of Almodovar was burnt in Seville, along with a young woman who had been convicted by the holy office of having carried on an intercourse with an evil spirit, and of knowing the future by heart. Both these helpless victims of ignorance and fanaticism breathed in every feature the most perfect health, so that the hands of the executioner who threw them on the pile trembled all the whuile. It was in a square, destined to those horrible assassinations, that at the end of a pathetic sermon the two unfortunate beings were conveyed on ass-back. "Ite missa est," was the sign given to throw the wretched creatures on the burning pile"
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staffs
Administrator
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Post by staffs on Nov 29, 2004 6:31:28 GMT
Stash, Where do you find these wonderful piesces .Superb stuff !!!
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Post by offramp on Nov 29, 2004 7:15:52 GMT
I can't agree with that. Some or many have had such thoughts, but MOST people when they think of knights templar, they think of knights like you'd see on a king arthur animated tv show. That's not evil at all...and good enough for a superstition to start!! I have not read Ivanhoe or even ever seen a film of it, but I have heard that the Templars are bad in it.
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Post by JudasImok on Nov 29, 2004 7:48:08 GMT
Hey Stash, I doubt this is where Ingo, got his info, but here's a site that although is I believe anti-masonic, it does have alot of info about Hitler, Nazi's and Freemasonry. www.blackraiser.com/nazorig.htmHere's a quote from the site saying almost the same thing: (BTW I'm not saying this is fact or that I believe it, but it says the same thing as Ingo's info.) "The Nazi's shut down the 'Modern' Grand Lodges whose membership was heavily Jewish and Liberal, but allowed the 'Old Prussian' Grand Lodges to carry on after their Grand Master's sent formal written oaths of allegiance to 'Mein Furher', changed their name to 'The Frederick the Great Association' (Frederick the Great being the founder of 'Regular' Freemasonry in the German States.), and removed any obvious Hebraic wording from it's rituals. When the war was over 'Regular' Freemasonry operating under the guise of 'Frederick the Great Associations' changed their name back to what it was before CrystalNacht. There was absolutely no persecution of 'Regular' U.K./U.S./Prussian Grand Lodge Freemasonry in Germany other than getting them to change their name to 'The Frederick the Great Association'. How could there be? Their Lodges were filled with General Officers of the High Command, Captains of Industry, Commerce, Finance, Leading Citizens, most of whom were loyal Nazi Party members themselves. The very men who brought Hitler to power. All with the knowledge of U.S./U.K. 'Regular' Grand Lodge Freemasonry and it's Hereditary Grand Master the Duke of Kent. Frederick the Great was likewise known as "Frederick Barbarossa." His name is often intentionally mixed up with that of Khair-ed-din Barbarossa, the Ottoman Barbary pirate popularly called Redbeard. The code name for the Nazi secret plan to invade the Soviet Union (and occupy the so-called Aryan Fatherland) was originally "Otto." But in December 1940, Hitler officially changed the name to Operation Barbarossa before invading Russia in 1941."
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Post by taylorsman on Nov 29, 2004 8:15:43 GMT
There are many errors in this piece.
1 Although more than one Duke of Kent has held the Office of Grand Master, this is not a Hereditary Title restricted to that family as others have also done so, e.g. Edward VII when he was Prince of Wales, his Brother the Duke of Connaught, the Earl of Harewood, The Earl of Scarborough to name but a few, and the early GMs were commoners.
2 UGLE and other such Freemasonry WAS persecuted by the Nazis. Look to what they did in the Channel Islands such as Jersey to the Masonic Temples there.
3 Apart from their first names, Frederick the Great is not anything to do with Frederick Barbarossa. They are centuries apart and the Emperor Frederick Barbarossa took on the then Pope, (one of the Gregory's I think) and lost and was made to stand with his army in the snow at Canossa for a few days before the Pope would receive him. In later German History there are two echoes of this incident. During the Kulturkampf when the German Government in the late 19th century was struggling against the influence of the Roman Catholic Church in its efforts to set up a secular State Educational System, Bismark said "we will not go to Canossa!" meaning this time they would not surrender to the Pope. The second reference was in Hitler naming his invasion of Russia as "Operation Barbarossa" ironic as it was the Russian winter which to large measure was to his ultimate downfall.
This article is a typical example of how Anti-Masons twist facts to back up their arguments.
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Post by offramp on Nov 29, 2004 15:57:57 GMT
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Post by leonardo on Nov 29, 2004 18:47:51 GMT
I think anti FM sites such as FMW, are interesting to read - but NOT to be taken seriously by any stretch of the imagination. There is no sense of balance in their approach, just the usual messages of misinformation hate. It must be baffling for them when they visit a site such as this and see how everyday Masons just get on with life. Here we have people from all back grounds discussing Freemasonry and everyday things from; cats and dogs to religious beliefs. No mention of devil worship whatsoever
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Post by Stash on Nov 29, 2004 19:27:36 GMT
I think one very important problem with looking at these sites with any type of regularity though....is for your memory's sake. Let's face it, if we could pick and choose what we remembered, life would be a different story. Unfortunately, memory is almost like a gamble, you have to hope for the best....but if you are constantly looking at those sites which talk about some of the same symbols and entities as reputable info sources, you will maybe remember by accident the things from the anti sites before the version from the reputable site....and your database of info in your coco will be all messed up!!
This might just apply to me and my very crappy brain though!!
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Post by sid on Nov 29, 2004 22:16:59 GMT
The persecution of the Knights Templar by Philip of France and the Pope which commenced on Friday 13 October 1307 was mainly political and greed. Unfortunately (for Philip) the Templar fleet sailed from Rochelle the day before with the Templars' treasury aboard and disappeared. No one knows where they went although Scotland has been pouted as a possible destination as Robert the Bruce had been excommunicated by the Pope so the Templars would most probably be able to find sanctuary there. This is however, speculation.
To say that De Molay, the Templars' Grand Master was burnt alive is an understatement. He was coated in oil and roasted slowly on a spit like a piece of meat. Before he died, he called both Philip and the Pope to appear before God. One was dead within 3 months, the other within a year.
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Post by whistler on Nov 29, 2004 23:34:51 GMT
going off topic for a moment. We had a Jewish visitor to lodge last week who only gave the second part of the E.A.sign . He said he did this because the first part reminded him too much of the Nazi salute sarge My answer to this is how can he prove himself if he can't/doesn't give the sign. The symbol certainly doesn't belong to a political party, and is much older than 60 odd years.
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Post by Stash on Nov 29, 2004 23:38:11 GMT
For a really interesting book about every possible aspect of Jacques De Molay's death and the times before and after it, try reading The Second Messiah by Robert Lomas & Christopher Knight. It's a really fun book to read, and contains quite alot of information and speculation, both of which are really interesting. Link to book on amazon.com: www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1931412766/qid=1101774635/sr=8-1/ref=pd_ka_1/002-6808406-2872869?v =glance&s=books&n=507846
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Post by offramp on Nov 30, 2004 3:12:30 GMT
...To say that De Molay, the Templars' Grand Master was burnt alive is an understatement. He was coated in oil and roasted slowly on a spit like a piece of meat. I did not know that. I have always visualised DeMolay's death as looking like these pictures...
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Post by offramp on Nov 30, 2004 3:17:34 GMT
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Post by offramp on Nov 30, 2004 17:36:30 GMT
And while we are at it, who are these parvenus?
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Post by Stash on Nov 30, 2004 20:41:34 GMT
ooooooooo, Offramp, you HAVE to find more!! I don't have time to look them up tonight, so, the task is set to the rest of you!!
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staffs
Administrator
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Post by staffs on Nov 30, 2004 22:13:09 GMT
Offramp,
I think when Stash logs on he will take the bait you are dangling in front of him.
HMMMMM very interesting thread this one and getting better day by day
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Michael
Member
... as you have passed through the ceremony of your initiation...
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Post by Michael on Dec 1, 2004 13:01:38 GMT
Though I would not dare to belittle the persecution faced by our passed Brothers as we do not have to face death for our beliefs.
I also have no wish to get caught between Offramp or Stash in what is turning in to the best selection of links I have seen for a while.
But We still face persecution today. With local councils demanding to know if it's employees are Masons, and should you care to fill in an application to become a magistrate you are not asked which golf club you belong to or if you are a Rotarian, but 'Are you a Freemason' (for monitoring purposes). Given that in the last survey of the Judiciary 5% said they were Masons and 6% failed to answer. The worst case would suggest that 89% are not Masons. And I'm sure more deals are struck in the 19th hole than you could ever manage at the festive board. I know its not life threatening but it really annoys me.
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Post by whistler on Dec 1, 2004 18:30:09 GMT
With local councils demanding to know if it's employees are Masons, and should you care to fill in an application to become a magistrate you are not asked which golf club you belong to or if you are a Rotarian, but 'Are you a Freemason' (for monitoring purposes). Given that in the last survey of the Judiciary 5% said they were Masons and 6% failed to answer. The worst case would suggest that 89% are not Masons. And I'm sure more deals are struck in the 19th hole than you could ever manage at the festive board. I know its not life threatening but it really annoys me. Englishman all the above is a disgrace to the Country who founded most of the Laws of many Lands - Who voted such regulations? Do you not have a privacy act, or something to prevent such questions. Interesting thought, as "Regular" freemasons officially do not consider Co-Freemasons to be Freemasons, what should I put on my application to become a magistrate
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Post by Doric on Dec 2, 2004 7:51:30 GMT
Englishman all the above is a disgrace to the Country who founded most of the Laws of many Lands - Who voted such regulations? Do you not have a privacy act, or something to prevent such questions. Interesting thought, as "Regular" freemasons officially do not consider Co-Freemasons to be Freemasons, what should I put on my application to become a magistrate Whistler, we do not have a Privacy Act - however, to force a Mason to disclose his membership is in breach of European legislation to which we in England must now pander. However, you know politicians - one rule for them , and another for us! As Billy Connolly says - "if you wouldn't go for a pint with someone, then why fucking vote for him?"
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