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Post by lauderdale on Feb 19, 2008 22:15:53 GMT
I think Leo and Maximus have defined what a Christian Fundamentalist is, to my satisfaction anyway, as their views and experiences accord with mine on this.
Funnily enough there is Brother on another Forum who is a Freemason and a very involved one too, who a few years ago became an Evangelical Christian. I wonder how he manages to "Square" the two?
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Post by maat on Feb 19, 2008 22:21:41 GMT
Sorry for misunderstanding... h. were your words so I took d. to be also.
Maat
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Post by maat on Feb 19, 2008 22:30:37 GMT
Children need direction, need punishments, need rewards - and eventually they grow and become well balanced adults who are capable, for the most part, of seeing things as they are. Children are frightened of the dark, adults know better.
Soul-wise I think a connection can be drawn. People find their own place in the scheme (Plan) of things. If the plan is perfect then who are we to sneer at brothers who are still afraid of the dark? A wise parent will listen to their fears then maybe light a candle of understanding.
Maat
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Post by maximus on Feb 20, 2008 0:57:46 GMT
Check out this site. These people are some of the vilest excuses for human beings I have ran across. They regularly protest at soldier's funerals, and Rolling Thunder and other veteran's group's routinley place themselves as a shield between the grieving families and these nitwits. www.godhatesfags.com/This a prime example of fundamentalist extremeism.
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Post by maat on Feb 20, 2008 1:12:22 GMT
Access denied by my computer ? I agree those sort of actions are detestable - I do not understand how someone who professes to be Christian can intentionaly cause hurt to others, most especially to the weak or vulnerable. Apparently it is the only real sin there is.... to harm others.
Maat
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Post by leonardo on Feb 20, 2008 8:03:49 GMT
Check out this site. These people are some of the vilest excuses for human beings I have ran across. They regularly protest at soldier's funerals, and Rolling Thunder and other veteran's group's routinley place themselves as a shield between the grieving families and these nitwits. www.godhatesfags.com/This a prime example of fundamentalist extremeism. Goodness! It's frightening to think such people exist. How anyone can incorporate the love of Jesus and use it to justify such hatred beyond me.
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Post by lauderdale on Feb 20, 2008 9:41:43 GMT
Yeuch! Nutjobs r us?
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Post by billmcelligott on Feb 20, 2008 14:14:31 GMT
The question for the Fundamentalist Christian is that Freemasons worship another God, a different God and that there is mutual Prayer with members of other Religions.
Well of course he is right there is communal Prayer we can not deny that. There may be a Muslim , a Jew and a Christian in one Lodge and when the opening Prayer is said, each will pray to his own God.
So in part he is right,but if the same individual goes to his Faith and attends to his own Religion he has not left it, just been social with some of other Faiths.
For thousands of years each of these faiths have been tolerant of each other, in many ways. Some areas have not been, Lebanon is a good example, Arabs, some Christian , some Muslim. But a large Christian community.
Is it important to engage the fundamentalist Christian, my answer is yes. As it is important to engage the fundamentalist Jew and Muslim. from fundamentalism comes extremism, extremes come from little or no knowledge.
The more knowledge the more understanding. I believe we have a duty to be prepared to make others understand, we do not want to control you, we just want to live in peace and harmony.
I asked a Muslim cleric why when he sent me emails did he always put a P at the end. He said it is the Muslim greeting, 'Peace be with you'. That I respected.
Now we come to the question of a different God. The Fundy will accuse you of worshiping 'The Great Architect of the Universe'.
I have a standard answer, OK you tell me who is the 'The Great Architect of the Universe'. They usually start to waffle at this point.
The fundamentalist has as much right to think what he thinks as every other person has to think what they think. But it does not mean they are right.
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Post by maximus on Feb 20, 2008 15:05:32 GMT
The question for the Fundamentalist Christian is that Freemasons worship another God, a different God and that there is mutual Prayer with members of other Religions. They would counter that we are not praying to the "God of the Bible." Of course, they define who that is.
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Post by billmcelligott on Feb 20, 2008 18:13:49 GMT
Genesis 1 (New International Version) The Beginning 1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. 3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day. 6 And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water." 7 So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the expanse "sky." And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day. 9 And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." And God saw that it was good.
So who is the 'Architect of the Universe' ? agreed he did not get planning permission but there was no one else around.
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Post by lauderdale on Feb 20, 2008 18:31:52 GMT
The problem I have found with most Antis, in particular those who are Anti for a religious reason, is that they work from the First Premise that "All Freemasons are bad" . Having that firmly implanted in their brains, they will then happily accept with neither proof nor possibilty of rebuttal, anything that agrees with that idea and both strengthens their own belief and can be used as a plausable example to others.
Freemasons worship Baphomet? of course they do, and Antis will cite all the usual calumies against the KTs etc as "proof". Masons attend Church, take Communion, then keep the Host and desecrate it in their Ceremonies, (this is one they use against the Higher Degrees), yes they will believe that. The Craft has Blood Sacrifice either of the Candidates Blood or of some small animal such as a Lamb etc. Yes we are Guilty as far as they are concerned. I have had all other these thrown at me by Anti-Masons.
One can quote the Bible, be it the New International Version, or the one I prefer the KJV, but they will then say we are mis-interpreting it or using it for our own ends. You just cant win with these people.
So what do I do? I IGNORE THEM! If they push their luck they get shown the door a bit more robustly! I have better things to do with my time than waste it on them.
On the other hand I will bend over backwards to assist the genuine enquirer, and one can soon sort the sheep from the goats in that matter with a bit of experience.
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Post by leonardo on Feb 21, 2008 0:56:20 GMT
Genesis 1 (New International Version) The Beginning 1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. 3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day. 6 And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water." 7 So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the expanse "sky." And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day. 9 And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." And God saw that it was good.
So who is the 'Architect of the Universe' ? agreed he did not get planning permission but there was no one else around.I often ask: if there was really absolutely nothing in existence prior to God creating it, where did He reside? I have never received an answer that made sense to me.
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Post by billmcelligott on Feb 21, 2008 1:16:09 GMT
I have a better question than that, if he was the one and only God, how come he said ,
Genesis: 1 26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
OUR Image ? and who was he talking to ?
What was before God? is the same question as what was there before the Universe. If we knew for certain maybe we would not ask for God.
Of course the answer is, if God is capable of creating the Universe , being its architect, then why would he need a Universe, he was doing OK he was already all powerful.
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Post by Antonius on Feb 21, 2008 6:42:22 GMT
theres an episode of louis theroux's wierd weekends on the phelp church called: 'the most hated family in america'
you may also want to check out a documentary called 'jesus camp'.
both i believe are on googlevideo.
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Post by leonardo on Feb 21, 2008 8:14:56 GMT
I have a better question than that, if he was the one and only God, how come he said , Genesis: 1 26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. OUR Image ? and who was he talking to ? What was before God? is the same question as what was there before the Universe. If we knew for certain maybe we would not ask for God. Of course the answer is, if God is capable of creating the Universe , being its architect, then why would he need a Universe, he was doing OK he was already all powerful. This is, of course, presumative on the Bible being the only source available, or the only source acceptable. Bit like those who use the Bible to prove the Bible is true. As I said earlier I have never received a satisfactory answer to my question, I doubt I ever will. But this is hardly surprising as I do not accept the Bible to be the infallible word of God, if I did such questions might never be an issue. Don't get me wrong as I have every respect for those who believe 100 percent what the Bible says, or any holy book, for that matter, but I personally do not believe it able to answer all my questions. Some, yes, but no way all of them. I must admit I sometimes wish I had the faith of others, if I did acceptable answers might be easier to come across.
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Post by billmcelligott on Feb 21, 2008 10:34:16 GMT
Of course there is an answer .......... Faith.
Faith is the leap between the provable and the acceptable. Faith is the blueprint of the Soul.
When you have a child and the child looks up for guidance, it does not say , who are you ?, where do you come from ? , it says hi Dad, I love you.
Faith.
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Post by leonardo on Feb 21, 2008 10:53:27 GMT
Of course there is an answer .......... Faith. Faith is the leap between the provable and the acceptable. Faith is the blueprint of the Soul. When you have a child and the child looks up for guidance, it does not say , who are you ?, where do you come from ? , it says hi Dad, I love you. Faith. My father, when he was alive, I could see and touch and talk to and know it wasn't in my imagination. In other words, faith, or blind faith was not required. A total belief in a Bible based God requires a blind faith that I do not have. I wish at times I did, though. I love the Bible, the nice parts, and in particular the New Testament, which at times speaks directly to my heart, but the Old Testament God is too harsh and too judgmental and does not make me feel good. He frightens me.
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Post by lauderdale on Feb 21, 2008 11:05:42 GMT
Bro Leo , I can agree with you there. I do not have "Blind Faith" which like "Blind Obedience" is something I dislike and distrust.
Like many teenagers I rejected religion for a while but by research and reasoning after about 10 years or so I returned to a belief in God and to a liberal form of Christianity. So I would say I have reasoned Faith.
Again as regards the Bible, a wonderful Book and people have died for their belief in it, but in the end, though parts may be Divinely Inspired, it is a man-made book as are all VSLs, sacred for the belief and value that people place in them but not of themselves.
I too have problems with the Jehovah of the Old Testament, too much smiting, pouring forth of his wrath etc for my liking. A bit like the Roman Jupiter or Greek Zeus.
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Post by leonardo on Feb 21, 2008 11:26:44 GMT
Interesting, Bro. Steve, my experience and understanding, with the exception of the time scale, seems to be mirroring your own! The New Testament, and the teachings of Jesus and Paul, etc, resonate well with me.
I like your, "liberal form of Christianity" as this too reflects in many ways my own perspective.
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Post by penfold on Feb 21, 2008 11:32:13 GMT
The physical manifestation of your father is in no doubt, however, that wasn't what Bill was alluding to - when you first learn to talk and communicate do you question who the ever present adults are in your young life or do you simply accept that they are 'Mum' and 'Dad'.
I believe that was what Bill was alluding to.
Of course I could be wronger than Mr Wrong of Wrongsville, Wrong County in the state of New Wronger
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