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Post by maximus on Feb 6, 2008 16:49:14 GMT
Likely you are right. Might burst into flames. ;D
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Post by leonardo on Feb 6, 2008 17:37:51 GMT
Likely you are right. Might burst into flames. ;D I'm sure you mean methaphorically
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Post by maximus on Feb 6, 2008 19:23:57 GMT
Likely you are right. Might burst into flames. ;D I'm sure you mean methaphorically Of course...
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Feb 6, 2008 19:25:26 GMT
Can you show anyplace in Masonry where this prayer is not used to open the Lodge?UGLQ ritual does not have this prayer or anything like it. [/size][/quote] Nor UGL of NSW & ACT, (uses Ruth 2:19).
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Post by xiii on Feb 6, 2008 19:30:34 GMT
You know that a fundamentalist would say that the Devil quotes scripture to further his own aims. Right back at him/her! :-P
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Post by atikbif on Feb 6, 2008 23:07:37 GMT
Nor UGL of NSW & ACT, (uses Ruth 2:19). Thanks for responses, better light is always helpful. Apparently this isn't as common down under as it is in the U.S. and UGLE. I'd be curious about openings in other locations, particularly Canada and in South American lodges. Does anyone know?
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imakegarb
Member
One wee, sleeket, cowran, tim'rous beastie
Posts: 3,573
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Post by imakegarb on Feb 7, 2008 3:07:56 GMT
You could take a fundamentalist into the lodge and show them about, show them the VSL on the altar, but it would not convince them. They would claim that we hid the statue of Baphomet before they came. Oh wow, this reminded me. While I was in Paris last month, Bro. Fred took me to Saint-Merri, a medieval church in the heart of the city. There, at the top of the arch on the front porch, was an image that looked scads like Baphomet. I couldn't get a photo myself as they had this big net over the entire church, part of some refurb of some kind. But I went online and looked and found a picture. Here 'tis: K, maybe it's not Baphomet but it sure looks like him/her/it. Which leaves me wondering . . . why?
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Post by waynecowley on Feb 7, 2008 9:01:03 GMT
We don't have that particular prayer in Oxford working under UGLE either
Wayne
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Post by leonardo on Feb 7, 2008 13:36:48 GMT
You could take a fundamentalist into the lodge and show them about, show them the VSL on the altar, but it would not convince them. They would claim that we hid the statue of Baphomet before they came. Oh wow, this reminded me. While I was in Paris last month, Bro. Fred took me to Saint-Merri, a medieval church in the heart of the city. There, at the top of the arch on the front porch, was an image that looked scads like Baphomet. I couldn't get a photo myself as they had this big net over the entire church, part of some refurb of some kind. But I went online and looked and found a picture. Here 'tis: K, maybe it's not Baphomet but it sure looks like him/her/it. Which leaves me wondering . . . why? It is kind of similar to the one we saw last time we were in Renne Le Chateau in the South of France. Check out this link for some exceptional photos of what some refer to as Baphomet: (scroll down for some nice close ups) www.rennes-discovery.com/devil.htm
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imakegarb
Member
One wee, sleeket, cowran, tim'rous beastie
Posts: 3,573
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Post by imakegarb on Feb 7, 2008 15:51:14 GMT
Wow. Very, very cool images!!
The Baphomet at Saint-Merri is at the very top of the huge archway going into the church, which, to me, he's expected to look like a capstone. Usually, in such art, I expect to see Christ enthroned in such a position. With leads me to wonder "why"?
But, then, the medieval version of this critter is not what he's evolved into today. For some of the faithful, he is an excuse for bad behavior and a good propaganda tool for getting rid of any annoying tendencies toward free though and free will. So it could well be that there's a different idea in mind that, as yet, I cannot fathom.
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Post by leonardo on Feb 7, 2008 15:57:43 GMT
Thank you. We got some ourselves but they were pretty poor. I am not great at taking indoor shots.
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Post by maximus on Feb 7, 2008 17:32:30 GMT
But, then, the medieval version of this critter is not what he's evolved into today. For some of the faithful, he is an excuse for bad behavior and a good propaganda tool for getting rid of any annoying tendencies toward free though and free will. So it could well be that there's a different idea in mind that, as yet, I cannot fathom. The version we have today is that of Eliphas Levi. The image is that of the Reconsiler of opposites. Hence the androyne imagery. That certian fundamentalist religionists have chosen to misconstrue its meaning only proves thier ignorance. Interesting article: www.twistedtree.org.uk/baphomet.htm
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Post by Antonius on Feb 7, 2008 18:17:06 GMT
You could take a fundamentalist into the lodge and show them about, show them the VSL on the altar, but it would not convince them. They would claim that we hid the statue of Baphomet before they came. Oh wow, this reminded me. While I was in Paris last month, Bro. Fred took me to Saint-Merri, a medieval church in the heart of the city. There, at the top of the arch on the front porch, was an image that looked scads like Baphomet. I couldn't get a photo myself as they had this big net over the entire church, part of some refurb of some kind. But I went online and looked and found a picture. Here 'tis: K, maybe it's not Baphomet but it sure looks like him/her/it. Which leaves me wondering . . . why? looks like a match to me. your confusion is due to the fact that Baphomet is actualy a hermaphrodite. what we have here is the most profound symbolic expression of the concept of Jesus Christ himself, and an alchemical formula on how to become the archetype he represents.
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Post by atikbif on Feb 8, 2008 1:24:38 GMT
We don't have that particular prayer in Oxford working under UGLE either And UGLE, technically speaking, is not the source, its derivation is earlier than the formation of UGLE in 1813. The prayer as quoted above appeared as the opening prayer in Pennell's Constitutions (1730). It also appears in Dermott's Ahiman Rezon (1803) as follows: ANOTHER PRAYER, AND THAT WHICH IS MOST GENERAL AT MAKING OR OPENING.
MOST holy and glorious Lord God, thou great Architect of Heaven and Earth, who art the Giver of all good Gifts and Graces, and haft promifed that where two or three are gathered together in thy Name, thou wilt be in the midft of them: In thy Name we affemble and meet together, moft humbly befeeching thee to blefs us in all our Undertakings, that we may know and ferve thee aright, that all our Doings may tend to thy Glory and the Salvation of our Souls.
And we befeech thee, O Lord God, to blefs this our prefent Undertaking, and grant that this our new Brother may dedicate his Life to thy Service, and to be a true and faithful Brother among us: Endue him with Competency of thy Divine Wifdom, that he may, with the Secrets of Free-Mafonry, be able to unfold the Mvfteries of Godiinefs and Chriftianity. This we moft humbly beg, in the Name and for the Sake of Jefus Chrift our Lord and Saviour. Amen. The second paragraph, as I understand it, was appended to the prayer when it appeared at the opening on EA degree, otherwise only the first paragraph was used. I'm not sure of the lines of derivation from that point, but it remains as the opening prayer in most lodges in the states, in the following form: Most holy and glorious Lord God, the Great Architect of the Universe: the giver of all good gifts and graces: Thou hast promised that where two or three are gathered together in Thy name, Thou wilt be in the midst of them. In Thy name we assemble, most humbly beseeching Thee to bless us in all our undertakings, that we may know and serve Thee aright, and that all our actions may tend to Thy glory and to our advancement in knowledge and virtue; and we beseech Thee, O Lord God, to bless this our present assembling, and to illuminate our minds by the divine precepts of Thy Holy Word, and teach us to walk in the light of Thy countenance; and when the trials of our probationary state are over, be admitted into THE TEMPLE "not made with hands, eternal, in the heavens." Amen. I am not aware of any U.S. lodges that do not use this as the opening prayer, but not having access to every manual, I have to concede the possibility. I had assumed, incorrectly as it turns out, that because the derivation was the same, that the UGLE still used the prayer or a similar form of it. I also assumed that the alteration from the original was the result of the removal of Christian references by the Duke of Sussex in 1813. The U.S. lodges appear to have rebelled against that removal, because the monitors that arose for nearly a century afterward continued to carry Christian references and even, in some cases, accompanying interpretative explanations that were almost exclusively Christian. My question now is, was 1813 the point at which the prayer was discontinued in the UGLE? Was it discontinued everywhere in all the lodges? Does the second paragraph of it still appear in the first degree? Not that it's a big issue, but I have a natural curiosity about the paths of transmission of various Masonic forms, and the manner in which some get dropped, others get altered, and yet others remain practically unchanged over periods of over a century.
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Post by leonardo on Feb 14, 2008 14:15:33 GMT
I was hoping we would have heard more from the thread starter on this.
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Post by xiii on Feb 14, 2008 14:19:57 GMT
I am certainly still curious about his answer to my question (and others), should he feel inclined to return.
But perhaps his argument is mainly of the "Because I say so" variety, in which case it is already laid out for all to see.
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Post by leonardo on Feb 14, 2008 14:33:24 GMT
Perhaps you are right. I hope he's OK.
He seemed keen to get his message across, and considering we have provided a platform for him to do just this, one would have thought he'd be eager to take advantage.
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imakegarb
Member
One wee, sleeket, cowran, tim'rous beastie
Posts: 3,573
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Post by imakegarb on Feb 14, 2008 15:09:38 GMT
He may also have felt terribly outnumbered here
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Post by leonardo on Feb 14, 2008 15:40:04 GMT
Possibly, but then again maybe he felt he'd made his position clear enough and now feels there'd be little point in returning to it.
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Post by billmcelligott on Feb 14, 2008 17:56:40 GMT
Who is G.A.O.T.U.?
This is like asking who is the Captain of the ship?
It depends on which ship and which direction you are going.
The problem with those who ask the question is they know the answer, but want you to have exactly the same answer.
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