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Post by penfold on Nov 20, 2007 16:58:56 GMT
You would have to ask those who made the suggestion Brad.
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Post by devoutfreemason on Nov 20, 2007 17:41:07 GMT
With all due respect to those who made the suggestion, there are plenty of forums that will not discuss the topic. That is what makes MLoF special. It is a place to discuss imoprant topics in a civil manner like adults.
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Post by penfold on Nov 20, 2007 17:44:13 GMT
With all due respect to those who made the suggestion, there are plenty of forums that will not discuss the topic. That is what makes MLoF special. It is a place to discuss imoprant topics in a civil manner like adults. It may amaze you to know that most requests have come from those who are associated/connected with Halcyon, i.e. those who brought the subject up first. We special again in your eyes, eh? Thats nice.....
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vtmason
Member
Running Dog Lackey
Posts: 251
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Post by vtmason on Nov 20, 2007 18:11:56 GMT
With all due respect to those who made the suggestion, there are plenty of forums that will not discuss the topic. That is what makes MLoF special. It is a place to discuss imoprant topics in a civil manner like adults. There are some who might suggest that it is no one else's business
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Post by middlepillar on Nov 20, 2007 18:47:54 GMT
With all due respect to those who made the suggestion, there are plenty of forums that will not discuss the topic. That is what makes MLoF special. It is a place to discuss imoprant topics in a civil manner like adults. Thank you brother DFM it is reassuring to know we are considered special by our members. Long may that continue to be so
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Post by penfold on Nov 21, 2007 10:25:05 GMT
Altho we are actually MFoL, but heh, MLoF will do....
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Post by lauderdale on Nov 21, 2007 22:03:22 GMT
I have deliberately stayed off this thread, and will continue so to do but must thank Bro Theron Dunn for reproducing the letter from Bro Miller on the reasons for his Lodge going Independent of the GL of Ohio.
As I usually do, I will form my own conclusions, uninfluenced by the opinions of others.
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Post by lauderdale on Nov 22, 2007 11:42:17 GMT
Why has this thread been allowed to continue when Bro Peace's alternative "Masonic Malcontents: Another Perspective" has been locked?
I feel that both sides, pro-Establishment, and the Independents too should be permitted to state their case freely, subject only to the Forum Rules concerning Abuse, Defamation etc.
I hope that MFOL "Management" has not decided to take sides on this matter?
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Post by penfold on Nov 22, 2007 11:56:14 GMT
Why has this thread been allowed to continue when Bro Peace's alternative "Masonic Malcontents: Another Perspective" has been locked? I feel that both sides, pro-Establishment, and the Independents too should be permitted to state their case freely, subject only to the Forum Rules concerning Abuse, Defamation etc. I hope that MFOL "Management" has not decided to take sides on this matter? No, and why would we? The other thread was locked to prevent duplication, this thread was already running and responses should have been posted in here. Nothing more sinister than that, bro
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Post by lauderdale on Nov 22, 2007 11:59:58 GMT
That is reassuring Bro Penfold, but why not cut and paste Bro Jeff's comments from his now closed Thread thus melding the two Threads so that readers can see both sides of this issue?
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Post by penfold on Nov 22, 2007 12:46:18 GMT
Ah, the joys of moderating at speed when its all kicking off! It is what should have happened, but it didn't, I will c&p Jeff's comments in - but it may well be a bit confusing.
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Post by billmcelligott on Nov 22, 2007 12:46:58 GMT
Steve there is nothing stopping Jeff commenting or cutting and pasting here if he so wishes.
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Post by penfold on Nov 22, 2007 12:51:21 GMT
Below is Bro Jeff Peace's coments on the original blog entry. This was initially entered on the forum on a separate thread and in a different area, it was moved to this area, but as it then created a dupe the thread it was posted in was locked. It should have been entered to this thread, however, we didn't manage to do it at the time as we were otherwise engaged! Bro. Theron Dunn has such a wonderful way of bending both reality and the truth to meet his own needs. After reading his essay “Masonic “Malcontents” I felt compelled to respond with a more realistic perspective. Let’s take a look at what he says in light of reality and the facts. Theron begins by saying “These brothers seem to feel that if only freemasonry would change, lock, stock and barrel to THEIR vision, that everything would be cool beans and freemasonry would grow.” I have to question this statement in relationship to the reality unfolding in American Freemasonry. The “malcontents” have not asked for any changes. They simply quit American Freemasonry to pursue their own interests. Based on the actual events that have taken place they would appear to have little, if any, concern with the old system. The argument that they are demanding change is simply without merit. In his second paragraph he states: “The Problem is, their "suggestions" for change involve throwing away pretty much everything that makes Freemasonry, well, Masonic. This includes the Grand Lodge system, the lodges, the ritual, the tenets, how we meet, who we recognize... if all their plans were implemented, we would be something else, but not freemasonry.” While many of the “malcontents” have complained about the heavy handedness of the Grand Lodges, nowhere have I seen them call for an overall change to Freemasonry. Since each jurisdiction has its own unique rituals, and they change these from time to time (many were drastically changed in the 1920’s and the Scottish Rite just re-wrote all of its rituals), the idea that the “malcontents” are calling for changes to the rituals is ridiculous. Nowhere have they said anything about changing the “tenets,” or how lodges meet. They have, however, openly complained about the use of recognition to further racism in the southern United States. If feel this is justifiable on moral grounds, and that most of the modern world would agree with the “malcontents” on this issue. “They go on constantly about Grand Lodges being ‘monolithic’ and ‘unresponsive’. One of these brothers even recently wrote: Monolithic systems such as Grand Lodges are well suited for mass production operations where everything is the same, but poorly suited to address individual needs. This, I believe, is the true nature of the problem. It's not about the needs of the ego but the spirit of the human being.””The problem is, this is incorrect, a sand foundation for all proceeding arguments, and in itself an ego driven position. These few brothers, and by few I mean less than a hundred (though they are quite vocal) out of, what, 4 million plus Freemasons worldwide, seem to hold the position that they are not bound by their obligation to Freemasonry, that they do not have to work within the system to effect change.” - Theron DunnTheron shames himself in the above paragraphs by not revealing the whole truth, and only the part he wants his reader to believe. He claims that it’s just a few brothers when he has no idea how many have been alienated by the existing system. He also twists the numerical statistics to meet the needs of his straw argument. The present situation is isolated to American Masonry and not the global fraternity of 4 million. Therefore, we are speaking of about 2 million Masons. Of these two million American Masons about 98% have not set foot in a lodge in the past twenty years and have no idea what’s taking place in their lodges or Grand Lodge. To claim that 2 million American Masons agree that the present status quo represents their views is a rhetorical fabrication. Of the forty thousand that are actively involved in the fraternity about 30% of those are unsatisfied with the present system. This represents about twelve thousand dissatisfied active Masons. “Ego is the prime cause of this problem, and others like it. In masonic ritual, we are taught that we were first PREPARED to be made a mason in our hearts, then taught to circumscribe our desires, and "wait a time with patience". A lack of patience, and an over riding ego are the prime cause of these types of actions.”- Theron DunnIs “ego” the real driving force in these events? Yes, but not in the way Theron would have us believe. When a Grand Master issues an edict or demand is it by its very nature unquestionable. Is it unreasonable for those affected by such edicts and demands to ask for the reasons and justifications behind them? Should Freemasons, as enlightened men, blindly follow the dictates of one man without reasonable justification? Past precedence has shown that asking for reasonable justifications is met with a heavy handedness by Grand Masters that includes threats and actions of suspension, expulsion, etc. designed to compel a blind submission to his whims and desires. So whose ego is truly driving the problem: that of the common blue lodge Mason or the Grand Master? Theron even agrees on this point when he says: “If one cannot convince the majority of the correctness of his belief, then it strikes me as the height of chutzpah, ego and hubris…” The same applies to the actions of the Grand Master in regards to lodges and individual brothers. In the case of the Grand Masters they don’t even bother to try and convince anyone of the rightness of their actions or demands. They offer no reasonable justification at all just “do what I say or else!” Again, I have to ask where is the real source of the ego problem: the Grand Master or the common brother? “With the RARE exceptions noted above, the universal experience has been one of friendship, support, study, contemplation, charity and brotherhood.”- Theron Dunn I would have to disagree with this statement based on the statistical data. If American Freemasonry were truly dedicated to “Friendship, support, study, contemplation, charity, and brotherhood” its lodges would be filled to overflowing at each meeting. Since 98% of the brethren haven’t attended in over twenty years it follows that it must not be the Utopia Theron would have us believe. While Theorn focuses on arguments of ego and malcontents American Freemasonry continues its downward spiral into oblivion. Perhaps men like Theron could accomplish more if they focused on solving the problems that breed malcontent such as the egos of Grand Masters and other Masonic leaders. Jeff Peace
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Post by lauderdale on Nov 22, 2007 12:53:50 GMT
Bro Penfold, Thank you!
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Post by penfold on Nov 22, 2007 17:49:25 GMT
Theron, you only appear to be critiquing one aspect of this - what are your opinions on the way the GL is alleged to have acted? Do you feel that they could or should have worked more closely with the bretheren to find some middle ground? Taking it away from the specific context of Halcyon, do you feel that the 'authoritarian' approach of 'my way or the hi-way' is appropriate behaviour for a GL/GM?
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Post by penfold on Nov 23, 2007 10:15:38 GMT
That seems pretty presumptive to me Theron. Not being party to all of the discussions that have gone on between the parties I really don't feel in a position to comment on what went before and led to the state of impasse. For instance, I don't know if the lodge was required to ask the GL before starting community programs in the lodge building. One thing i do know is that I feel that any criticism or cease and desist notices in respect of the community programs and building renovations stray outside of what I feel a GL should be looking at. I am of the opinion that most GL structures in malecraft freemasonry have become imbued with a sens of over importance and are acting in the same way corporations used to around 20 years ago - again I strongly feel that the practices and principles employed by many GL's in their management of lodges are outdated
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Post by billmcelligott on Nov 23, 2007 18:22:42 GMT
Well no he did not say
He said
Which can mean they need updating. I dont think there are many who would disagree, we could all do with a bit of improvement.
The first quote implies they are finished, the second they can be improved.
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Post by penfold on Nov 25, 2007 0:03:02 GMT
Only a little Brother, I still feel that GL structures have a purpose, if only for the compliance reasons you mention. We have the Disability Discrimination Act, which similarly places a legal duty on premises owners to be accessible. Some of our older buildings have exemptions, but others, including some churches that are over 800 years old, are making adjustments to ensure access to the less abled. I'm not too sure I understand the women thing, but that may well be a US peculiarity. In an argument I personally believe that both sides are at fault - that goes from the one's I have with Mrs P, up to and including beef's between GL's and lodges. An argument suggests that communication is breaking down - usually means somebody's ego has got in the way of finding a solution. With respect to the Halscyon situation I have no doubt that both sides could have handled things differently, but we are where we are and it is up to both sides to find a solution, or go their separate ways. That may end up in court, time will tell. Either way it's not great news for an order that promotes brotherly love and support.
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Post by penfold on Nov 25, 2007 0:16:23 GMT
Would however save on some heating bills.....
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Nov 25, 2007 0:29:09 GMT
Ah, here is the explanation. Since we are a private club, we are exempt from the American With Disabilities Act, UNLESS WE HOLD OURSELVES OUT AS RENTAL PROPERTIES. Same for any actions which might give a woman a means to try to force the regular lodges to allow them as members. That is one reason why we do not extend any kind of recognition to women's organizations... that and if you suggested it, many of the brothers would simply explode into flames, since they do not think women can BE masons. BTW, In the United Kingdom The Disability Discrimination Act 2005 generally requires that private clubs having more than twenty-five members may no longer discriminate against people on the basis of race, sexual orientation and/or disability.
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