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Post by hollandr on Nov 22, 2007 5:16:11 GMT
Theron
I recall someone greater than either of us who was reluctant to cast the first stone
I hope we can let the brethren in question solve their problems with good will and charity
Cheers
Russell
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Post by devoutfreemason on Nov 23, 2007 17:54:34 GMT
White night,, white night.
The most basic teaching of Freemasonry is for a man to master thinking for themselves. The rampant Jim Jones style Groupthink being advocated by the mainstream bully pulpit is starting to become seriously frightening.
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Post by billmcelligott on Nov 23, 2007 18:36:20 GMT
The divide in US Freemasonry is the same here as it has been on past occasions.
Sometimes listening to an outside observer does help.
There is the traditional Freemason which is happy with what there is in place and does not want change.
There are the Younger Freemasons who have maybe a higher level of fundamental education [maybe] who want change and it seems they want it now.
Now the education system over the past 30 years has taught those who have passed through it that they are the future, and so they are.
The older generation have seen the bad times and they have seen the people who created changes and it was not always good change. They have learned that you don't make a New Jerusalem in a day.
The younger think they have the keys to the Temple.
Both are right, when they work together they can do anything, when they work against each other we only see destruction.
It takes a big man to say, OK Brother I will listen to want you say and I will work with you to create a better place.
The question here is who are the bigger men.
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Post by devoutfreemason on Nov 23, 2007 21:25:40 GMT
The blind zealotus obedience to GL's is really frieghtenting. People wonder how the Nazi regime could have taken such total control over an entire population. Well, look around.
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Post by devoutfreemason on Nov 24, 2007 0:03:35 GMT
Brad, that's just silly. No one is drinking the Kool Ade, and its not only intellectually dishonest to lay that claim at anyone's door, because a realistic claim could be made that its YOU that is drinking the Kool Ade. I am frankly happy with my freemasonry, and I am happy when anyone that is not happy with it chooses to follow their conscience and leave it. What I object to are antics like the men at Halcyon (who have, thankfully now LEFT freemasonry behind them) have instituted. Look, they have always been welcome to leave, no one would have stopped them... heck, most masons would have helped them on their way... OUT of the fraternity. Now that they are out, the objection centers around their attempted destruction of the lodge and of their attempt to keep the assets of the lodge. No one is talking about forcing anyone to do anything, Brad, and this insistence of yours on alluding to Godwin's Rule is just ridiculous. Fact is, your analogy applies better to the men who left the lodge, since they could not get what they wanted by legal, moral, honorable and upright means, (which is what freemasonry teaches) they laid waste and tried to, frankly, abscond with that which was not rightfully theirs. THAT is a nazi like behavior. Freemasonry has absolutely no way of being associated with nazi like behaviors. It can be changed, it is being changed right now... problem is, as a brother pointed out this morning, these men are of the instant gratification generation... the one raised on the subconscious belief that all problems can be resolved in less than an hour with commercials. They have no patience, and want what they want when they want in, without being willing, apparently, to try to work inside the system to achieve their ends... and they seem willing, as you have just done, to demonize anyone that does not agree. I LIKE my Grand Lodge. I like my masonry. I live freemasonry. I am outraged by the unmasonic activities of these men, pretending to be masonic, while fighting their grand lodge on every single level, like a spoiled two year old denied a candy... and then wondering why they are being called to task on breaking the rules. The rules are what they are, and if you dislike them, change them, quit complaining, or LEAVE. Its just intellectually dishonest to slander the MAJORITY of masons that stay with freemasonry as you just did. The minority isn't always wrong, nor is it always right. That's why we have a constitution in this country to prevent a tyranny by the majority. If you cannot convince the majority you are right, then you must either live with the will of the majority, or quit. And don't give me Jeff's lame argument about the non participating members being silent objectors. That is simply rationalizing why the majority won't follow his lead. I should ask Jeff is his feet are wet and if he can see the pyramids, because he is standing shoulder deep in De Nile. I admire Jeff's persistence, I do not admire his methods. I think he is a brilliant man, but I just cannot accept his blanket: If you don't follow me, you are an evil man... philosophy. I am a good mason, and 99% of the brothers I know are good men who love the fraternity. Theron, You would have been a crown loyalist during the revolutionary war. I would not have been. I believe in freedom of thought, not blind obedience. You would jump in front of oncoming traffic if your GL told you to. We obviously are very different men. I am glad you love your Freemasonry, I am glad you live and die by the word of your GL because it is what makes you happy. Those same motivations do not work for everyone. What is the most important thing is to take Masonic teachings and apply them to life. The men of Halcyon have done this just via thier dedication to the Cleveland community. Loges have been closing right and left in Cleveland, and in Halcyon a 75 year old Masonic landmark has been restored. A vast center of Masonic education has been opened. A dedication to ritual and tradition has been restored and most importantly, the core Masonic teaching of THOUGHT has been renforced. G.A.O.T.U. bless it.
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Post by billmcelligott on Nov 24, 2007 0:25:40 GMT
devout you start off great
Perfectly reasonable even if critical.
Now we the outside world have to accept that the GL just does not care about Freemasonry at all or they are somehow complicit in its downfall.
You need to expand on the 75 year landmark.
What vast center of masonic education ?
How has the Masonic teaching of THOUGHT been opened?
Zeal has to be accompanied by explanation, the fact that phrases are written does not make them fact.
These claims needs to be supported by evidence or explanation if you want others to accept your theory or policy, or even your opinion.
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Nov 24, 2007 4:27:18 GMT
Those men who left the lodge in dire straights did so because they did not consider anything but their own desires, and because of their egos, everything they MIGHT have wrought will come to nothing. Bro. Theron,From the above, I understand that you presume to know what lurks in the hearts of men. I know you are not alone in this and I know I am responsible for my own reactions but I wish to make it known that such presumption really, really irks me.
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Nov 24, 2007 7:12:14 GMT
Bro. Theron,
I am undecided as to their actions and I have no problem with you speaking of their behaviour and its likely consequences (or in considering their side). Having been the chief administrative officer of a national society, (akin to a Provincial Grand Secretary) I am mindful of your legitimate concerns. What irks me is your presuming to know what they did or did not consider and what motivated them (beyond what they may have disclosed). By contrast, when I speak of the the exclusion of women, I deliberately refer to it as discrimination rather than prejudice, as I have no way of being sure as to the motives of others, only what they do.
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Post by devoutfreemason on Nov 24, 2007 7:46:33 GMT
Theron, let us not forget that if it where just left up to the GL of Ohio the Halcyon building would be abandoned, a day care center or a parking lot just like the other closed lodges throughout the city.
Frankly, I don't care who restored the temple or who keeps the temple but I do care that this sacred building has been saved and iot continues to be used for the benifit of the Brotherhood of mankind under the all seeing eye of G.O.A.T.U.
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Post by lauderdale on Nov 24, 2007 9:36:24 GMT
I am not a Lawyer but can someone give me a simple answer regarding the building, (Temple) in which Halcyon Lodge meets? that is
3615 Euclid Ave Cleveland, OH 44115
Who has good title to this building and land?
Can someone give a factual, non opinionated and non emotional answer to this question please?
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Nov 24, 2007 11:38:35 GMT
Well, I am sorry that it irks you. I will endeavor to be less irksome in future, just for you. Much appreciated.
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Post by billmcelligott on Nov 24, 2007 12:12:47 GMT
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Post by devoutfreemason on Nov 24, 2007 17:09:34 GMT
Let us not forget that the Rite Of The Rose Cross Of Gold (in my opinion is just incredible by the way) was "regular" under two Grand Masters and was declared "Clandestine" under a third. So, why should that hold any water seeing how things like this change on a whim?
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Post by lauderdale on Nov 24, 2007 17:31:10 GMT
Bro Bill, that link is dead, have the "Dirty Tricks Brigade" been at work?
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Post by billmcelligott on Nov 24, 2007 17:48:24 GMT
Bro. Lauderdale
it says
nothing to see here, move along...
You have just been IRKED
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Post by devoutfreemason on Nov 24, 2007 18:36:55 GMT
Let us not forget that the Rite Of The Rose Cross Of Gold (in my opinion is just incredible by the way) was "regular" under two Grand Masters and was declared "Clandestine" under a third. So, why should that hold any water seeing how things like this change on a whim? Because since then, they are considered clandestine,and since, by the admission of the master of that clandestine lodge, they are initiating, passing and raising new masons. Therefore, they will never be considered regular, and since on this particular issue, its LACK of regularity was a valid issue for the Grand Master of Ohio to consider in making his decision. Thats why. Do you realize just how strange that reads? Why are arbitrary rulings by indivual men to be obeyed as if handed down from Moses on Mount Sinai? And the end of the day I guess it really does not matter. The RRCG is thriving and so is Halcyon so I would gather than in the big picture a GL fuming makes no differance. For some men, "because I said so" is just not going to fly.
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Post by devoutfreemason on Nov 24, 2007 19:36:12 GMT
Why? Well, Brad, because that is how the rules are applied. And it is hardly arbitrary, and you really need to get your facts straight. The RRCG has NEVER been considered regular. EVER, by any grand master. RRCG may be "thriving", or it may not. However, it certainly ISN'T freemasonry. On the other hand, I wish them well in... whatever it is they are doing there And no one has done it "because I said so". Jeff is running essentially a clandestine lodge, initiating, passing and raising men, he was instrumental, hell, he was the driving force behind the UGLA, and now he was the driving force behind the whole Halcyon debacle. You can argue about this, but you have very little experience with Grand Lodges, nor the issues surrounding regularity. You have a lot of opinions about it, and that's a good thing, but I really think if you are going to opine on it, you should, oh, study the history of it first. Just a thought. And with your negative attitude about everything regular masonry, why are you interested in getting back into a regular lodge? Why isn't it Freemasonry? You do realize that Freemasonry is much older than any Grand Lodge right?
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Nov 24, 2007 19:41:58 GMT
I am sorry, Br. Carter, that you seem to be okay with their actions, and are more interested in slamming me for imputing intentions in their actions. Would you rather discuss the immorality of their actions alone, divorced from any discussion of their imputed intents? Yes. Although I had not said I was “okay with their actions,” Indeed, I had said, (Reply #12), “I am mindful of your legitimate concerns.” So again, I am sorry that YOU find all this irksome. My sincere apologies, Br. Carter, for insulting your sensibilities so. I try to act as a man of integrity, and when I see men who claim to be masons acting in a manner that seems to lack any shred of integrity, I tend to say so. Maybe it would be easier on your sensibilities if we never, ever discussed any issue that adversely affects freemasonry, so you won't be irked? Apology accepted. However, I see no need not to discuss issues, provided we stick to the facts.
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Post by therondunn on Nov 24, 2007 19:51:04 GMT
then we are in agreement, again. Thank you Br. Carter.
Brad... stick to one issue or another, or some might get the impression you are not sure of yourself.
We were discussing regular freemasonry, in situ, not the history of regularity. If you don't like it, change it. As for the age of Freemasonry, of course I know that. In fact, you know I know that, because we talked about that on the phone the other day, and you will recall I noted Mother Kilwinning #0 and speculatives joining operative lodges as early as 1560.
While interesting, this has NOTHING to do with the fact that the RRCG has NEVER been considered regular by any grand regular grand lodge, and since you brought up the claim that two grand masters had considered it regular, which was factually incorrect, please note that I did not bring up regularity. YOU did.
Now, while the history lesson is interesting, it is totally irrelevant to your initial claim and my comment regarding that claim. Lets stay on point here, shall we? The point is Halcyon and its unmasonic activities, NOT the RRCG, Jeff, UGLA or any OTHER side issue.
Thanks. If you want to start a thread somewhere else to discuss those issues, please do, following the rules of this forum. I will not participate it in, of course, restricting myself only to my blog comments and comments directed to those blog comments. PERIOD.
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Post by devoutfreemason on Nov 24, 2007 19:55:33 GMT
then we are in agreement, again. Thank you Br. Carter. Brad... stick to one issue or another, or some might get the impression you are not sure of yourself. We were discussing regular freemasonry, in situ, not the history of regularity. If you don't like it, change it. As for the age of Freemasonry, of course I know that. In fact, you know I know that, because we talked about that on the phone the other day, and you will recall I noted Mother Kilwinning #0 and speculatives joining operative lodges as early as 1560. While interesting, this has NOTHING to do with the fact that the RRCG has NEVER been considered regular by any grand regular grand lodge, and since you brought up the claim that two grand masters had considered it regular, which was factually incorrect, please note that I did not bring up regularity. YOU did. Now, while the history lesson is interesting, it is totally irrelevant to your initial claim and my comment regarding that claim. Lets stay on point here, shall we? The point is Halcyon and its unmasonic activities, NOT the RRCG, Jeff, UGLA or any OTHER side issue. Thanks. If you want to start a thread somewhere else to discuss those issues, please do, following the rules of this forum. I will not participate it in, of course, restricting myself only to my blog comments and comments directed to those blog comments. PERIOD. Umm, the point was is that under two GM's the RRCG operted just fine. Then under the third members of the RRCG where earased sans trial. I do not know if the other GM's "sactioned" the RRCG, but they did not attempt to shut it down either. Irregular may be the wrong term to use when it comes to the RRCG, perhaps "unrecognized" would be better?
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