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Post by tws on Dec 4, 2007 11:53:20 GMT
Putting aside the issue of forum rules, the statements on the page about a person are skewed and in my opinion, quite nasty. Specifically, for example, King's statements about why an individual has purported problems with their lodge. Is this information published anywhere? No it isn't. It appears to be gossip with the intent to discredit. And as such, in my mind, calls into question the credibility of the rest of what King has written about the GO on King's blog. As a result, I am skeptical about everything written on King's blog about the GO and wish to research on my own and make my own conclusions based on information from other independent sources, not be told by him what to think about the GO. D as you should. The internet is a big place, and I'm sure that brother King will not feel offended. Ya know I've been doings Masonic, and gun dog forums for 5-6 years now. I tend to get a little skeptical myself. For instance, when a cat comes on a forum looking into joining Freemasonry, just happens to be a lawyer from a State that is openly discussed, and having turmoil, and seems educated enough in the political drama to continue to go at it with TD, makes me go Hmmm. I'm not calling you to the carpet, of looking for a cut and paste war. Just thinking out loud a bit. He posts pretty good for a 107 year-old, dosen't he?
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Post by idestine on Dec 4, 2007 12:02:50 GMT
Then do your research, and make up your own mind. And lose the snotty attitude. Why don't you call the GOoF and see if they've ever even heard of this GOofUS outfit and report back to us? Charming ad hominem remark! I'll be very glad to share the results of my research with the group. But for the moment the question: WHY all the fuss over GO-US in the first place? The history of Freemasonry is loaded with schism after schism. Why is this any different?
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vtmason
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Post by vtmason on Dec 4, 2007 12:10:27 GMT
Then do your research, and make up your own mind. And lose the snotty attitude. Why don't you call the GOoF and see if they've ever even heard of this GOofUS outfit and report back to us? Charming ad hominem remark! I'll be very glad to share the results of my research with the group. But for the moment the question: WHY all the fuss over GO-US in the first place? The history of Freemasonry is loaded with schism after schism. Why is this any different? From my perspective, the only thing that makes this different is the hype that surrounds it. I've posted before that there are a bunch of national Grand Lodges, that while not recognized by "mainstream" Masonry quietly and effectively go about the business of Masonry. I'm sure that the GOUS will do a fine job, but they have put a huge bullseye on their back by their boasting and through past experiences will have a hard sell.
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Post by idestine on Dec 4, 2007 12:10:37 GMT
as you should. The internet is a big place, and I'm sure that brother King will not feel offended. Ya know I've been doings Masonic, and gun dog forums for 5-6 years now. I tend to get a little skeptical myself. For instance, when a cat comes on a forum looking into joining Freemasonry, just happens to be a lawyer from a State that is openly discussed, and having turmoil, and seems educated enough in the political drama to continue to go at it with TD, makes me go Hmmm. I'm not calling you to the carpet, of looking for a cut and paste war. Just thinking out loud a bit. Not only Ohio but from a suburb of Cleveland! And I have dogs too, so now you and I have something coincidentally in common!
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Post by idestine on Dec 4, 2007 12:14:39 GMT
[From my perspective, the only thing that makes this different is the hype that surrounds it. I've posted before that there are a bunch of national Grand Lodges, that while not recognized by "mainstream" Masonry quietly and effectively go about the business of Masonry. I'm sure that the GOUS will do a fine job, but they have put a huge bullseye on their back by their boasting and through past experiences will have a hard sell. I was wondering about the hype. Do the other Grand Lodges have backing from European lodges? D
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vtmason
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Posts: 251
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Post by vtmason on Dec 4, 2007 12:18:14 GMT
as you should. The internet is a big place, and I'm sure that brother King will not feel offended. Ya know I've been doings Masonic, and gun dog forums for 5-6 years now. I tend to get a little skeptical myself. For instance, when a cat comes on a forum looking into joining Freemasonry, just happens to be a lawyer from a State that is openly discussed, and having turmoil, and seems educated enough in the political drama to continue to go at it with TD, makes me go Hmmm. I'm not calling you to the carpet, of looking for a cut and paste war. Just thinking out loud a bit. Not only Ohio but from a suburb of Cleveland! And I have dogs too, so now you and I have something coincidentally in common! I figured as much. LOL Not off topic, but they say a person will get a dog to fit their personality. I raise and train Springer Spaniels. They are high energy, borderline hyper, can't sit still, but are loyal to a fault and work hard. What do you have?
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Post by tws on Dec 4, 2007 12:21:08 GMT
Then do your research, and make up your own mind. And lose the snotty attitude. Why don't you call the GOoF and see if they've ever even heard of this GOofUS outfit and report back to us? Charming ad hominem remark! I'll be very glad to share the results of my research with the group. But for the moment the question: WHY all the fuss over GO-US in the first place? The history of Freemasonry is loaded with schism after schism. Why is this any different? It is not Ad Hominum to suggest someone do what they have already stated that they were going to do. Why has the GOOFUS become an issue? Simple. Those who invented this constantly renamed entity have made it an issue by constantly attacking legitimite Freemasonry as being corrupt and evil. A mere handfull of individuals are representing themselves as being the fount of Masonic knowledge and behaviour, and the remaining five million or so are protrayed as being lost in a sea of error. The math simply does not add up. We will be looking forward to reading the results of your reaserch.
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vtmason
Member
Running Dog Lackey
Posts: 251
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Post by vtmason on Dec 4, 2007 12:22:32 GMT
[From my perspective, the only thing that makes this different is the hype that surrounds it. I've posted before that there are a bunch of national Grand Lodges, that while not recognized by "mainstream" Masonry quietly and effectively go about the business of Masonry. I'm sure that the GOUS will do a fine job, but they have put a huge bullseye on their back by their boasting and through past experiences will have a hard sell. I was wondering about the hype. Do the other Grand Lodges have backing from European lodges? D Not really as we really don't need it. "Regular" US Grand Lodges are recognized by the "Regular" Grand lodges in every European country. The exception to the is Italy. We recognize the Grand Orient in Italy where the UGLE does not. I put the word regular in quotation marks for lack of a better work to explain the lodges. I've learned that "the only true regularity that a Mason should worry about is the amount of bran in their diet." Dafoe
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Post by billmcelligott on Dec 4, 2007 12:38:44 GMT
Well lets check how and why the Masonic Internet knows all about GO-US.
As vt said there are a number of non-mainstream Grand Lodges rolling round the place creating their own thing and from all the evidence available are not interfering with the actual mainstream Grand Lodge in any particular State or Country. We have 2 in the UK that apart from the odd reference from the US nobody ever talks about.
But with GO-US it has been brought here and publicised by those that wish to publicise it, the main movers of this new Grand Lodge.
You are all worldly wise enough to know that if you put yourself out there and court fame, you have to know you will be put under the microscope.
And like any politician you had better make sure your shoes are clean.
So sympathy fir the poor downtrodden GO-US is not in great supply.
You will see on a number of occasions where my cheif sparing partner here will have his daily pop at UGLE my Grand lodge, well he has every right to do so. I have every right to tell him he is wrong.
So those that think GO-US are right and those who think it is wrong have the equal opportunity to do the same.
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Post by idestine on Dec 4, 2007 12:41:21 GMT
Charming ad hominem remark! I'll be very glad to share the results of my research with the group. But for the moment the question: WHY all the fuss over GO-US in the first place? The history of Freemasonry is loaded with schism after schism. Why is this any different? It is not Ad Hominum to suggest someone do what they have already stated that they were going to do. Why has the GOOFUS become an issue? Simple. Those who invented this constantly renamed entity have made it an issue by constantly attacking legitimite Freemasonry as being corrupt and evil. A mere handfull of individuals are representing themselves as being the fount of Masonic knowledge and behaviour, and the remaining five million or so are protrayed as being lost in a sea of error. The math simply does not add up. We will be looking forward to reading the results of your reaserch. Ad HominEm" was to the "snotty" comment. Calling someone a redneck because they are from TN would be another example of an "argument against the man" instead of sticking to the issue. Sticking to the issues: Is "GOOFUS" the actual acronym for the GO-US? I see your point about the numbers. But of the 5 million, how many are actively involved in Freemasonry beyond having gotten the first 3 degrees? Does that change the numbers a bit? And aren't many of the schisms throughout history for the same purported reason of a fresh start away from alleged corruption?
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Post by penfold on Dec 4, 2007 12:48:17 GMT
The facts speak for themselves. Fact is not a personal attack. The sequence of events are as represented. Do not try to obfuscate by raising the issue of Forum rules. If you know that events are contrary to those potrayed in Bro. King's blog, please present your version. Putting aside the issue of forum rules, the statements on the page about a person are skewed and in my opinion, quite nasty. Specifically, for example, King's statements about why an individual has purported problems with their lodge. Is this information published anywhere? No it isn't. It appears to be gossip with the intent to discredit. And as such, in my mind, calls into question the credibility of the rest of what King has written about the GO on King's blog. As a result, I am skeptical about everything written on King's blog about the GO and wish to research on my own and make my own conclusions based on information from other independent sources, not be told by him what to think about the GO. D Then take it up with Ed by personal communication with him, he is not a member here and not able to put his side across. You will also need to accept the fact that people are allowed to have opinions that differ from yours, and that sometimes those opinions will have been formed in the furnace of personal experience.
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Post by idestine on Dec 4, 2007 12:49:37 GMT
You are all worldly wise enough to know that if you put yourself out there and court fame, you have to know you will be put under the microscope. And like any politician you had better make sure your shoes are clean. Well said. I speculate this may be part of the strategy. VT points out there are other grand lodges that are flying under the radar and attending to the business of Masonry. I bet though that membership isnt huge. Making the big splash to court fame as you say, well, that will be countered by plenty of critique and bellyaching. The more complaining, the higher the membership in GO. Just a guess.
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Post by tws on Dec 4, 2007 12:55:48 GMT
Ad HominEm" was to the "snotty" comment. Calling someone a redneck because they are from TN would be another example of an "argument against the man" instead of sticking to the issue. Then we will say you were coming across a wee bit sharp. Don't know, but it's one I like. When the org. was named, it should have been obvious it could be written thus. There have been many groups, breakaways, over the centuries. Those who wish to be assocciated with the trappings of Masonry, but do not wish to abide by the rules.
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vtmason
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Posts: 251
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Post by vtmason on Dec 4, 2007 12:56:47 GMT
You are all worldly wise enough to know that if you put yourself out there and court fame, you have to know you will be put under the microscope. And like any politician you had better make sure your shoes are clean. Well said. I speculate this may be part of the strategy. VT points out there are other grand lodges that are flying under the radar and attending to the business of Masonry. I bet though that membership isnt huge. Making the big splash to court fame as you say, well, that will be countered by plenty of critique and bellyaching. The more complaining, the higher the membership in GO. Just a guess. Actually the one that I'm thinking of has almost 5000 members. It is a PH offshoot. Brad turned me on to them. They are a fascinating bunch. It is a Christian group.
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Post by idestine on Dec 4, 2007 13:18:08 GMT
Don't know, but it's one I like. When the org. was named, it should have been obvious it could be written thus. Well maybe they could have anticipated it, but maybe they didn't expect Masons to be mockingly disrespectful, of anyone, even of a breakaway organization.
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Post by penfold on Dec 4, 2007 13:25:02 GMT
Don't know, but it's one I like. When the org. was named, it should have been obvious it could be written thus. Well maybe they could have anticipated it, but maybe they didn't expect Masons to be mockingly disrespectful, of anyone, even of a breakaway organization. Couple of questions for you; 1/ Are you a mason? 2/ What exactly do you mean by 'other than the three degrees'? Now to answer your comment, as Bill pointed out those involved on GO US chose to come here and publicise its existence, nobody forced them to. Some of those publicising the new entity were very critical of existing GL's - often without foundation and with some fairly serious sensationalising of the detail - that was challenged, and then things descended into a slanging match. None of the individuals involved covered themselves in glory, some have recognised this and put their passions in check and are reflecting on what went before. I fail to understand your interest in defending an entity that surely means little to you?
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Post by xiii on Dec 4, 2007 13:44:57 GMT
Don't know, but it's one I like. When the org. was named, it should have been obvious it could be written thus. Like pronouncing 'UGLE' as 'ugly' ... ;D
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vtmason
Member
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Posts: 251
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Post by vtmason on Dec 4, 2007 13:47:47 GMT
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Post by idestine on Dec 4, 2007 13:49:54 GMT
Couple of questions for you; 1/ Are you a mason? 2/ What exactly do you mean by 'other than the three degrees'? Now to answer your comment, as Bill pointed out those involved on GO US chose to come here and publicise its existence, nobody forced them to. Some of those publicising the new entity were very critical of existing GL's - often without foundation and with some fairly serious sensationalising of the detail - that was challenged, and then things descended into a slanging match. None of the individuals involved covered themselves in glory, some have recognised this and put their passions in check and are reflecting on what went before. I fail to understand your interest in defending an entity that surely means little to you? I live in Ohio, in a burb of Cleveland and am interested in researching the GO. Not sure how you can guess at what the GO means to me if I don't know yet. Anyway, someone raised a good point about numbers: the small breakaway group identifying alleged corruption while millions in the mainstream do not. But I wondered how many of the millions of mainstream Masons, having completed their degrees (3) to become Masons, are active participants in their lodges to the level of being aware of bureaucratic corruption if indeed it did exist. If another way to look at the numbers is breakaway group versus a few thousand on the bureaucratic level. If that is the case, the existence of alleged corruption becomes more plausible.
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Post by penfold on Dec 4, 2007 14:01:45 GMT
Couple of questions for you; 1/ Are you a mason? 2/ What exactly do you mean by 'other than the three degrees'? Now to answer your comment, as Bill pointed out those involved on GO US chose to come here and publicise its existence, nobody forced them to. Some of those publicising the new entity were very critical of existing GL's - often without foundation and with some fairly serious sensationalising of the detail - that was challenged, and then things descended into a slanging match. None of the individuals involved covered themselves in glory, some have recognised this and put their passions in check and are reflecting on what went before. I fail to understand your interest in defending an entity that surely means little to you? I live in Ohio, in a burb of Cleveland and am interested in researching the GO. Not sure how you can guess at what the GO means to me if I don't know yet. Anyway, someone raised a good point about numbers: the small breakaway group identifying alleged corruption while millions in the mainstream do not. But I wondered how many of the millions of mainstream Masons, having completed their degrees (3) to become Masons, are active participants in their lodges to the level of being aware of bureaucratic corruption if indeed it did exist. If another way to look at the numbers is breakaway group versus a few thousand on the bureaucratic level. If that is the case, the existence of alleged corruption becomes more plausible. You must be a lawyer, you totally ignored the questions. I'm guessing an artificially inflated invoice is now in the mail? Actually, that is a good juxtapostion - what have you done to counter corruption in the legal industry in Ohio? Presuming you have been on the bar register for a while you will no doubt be aware there are laywers who pad their bills and act dishonestly - even corruptly, so in reply, what have you done about them?
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