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Post by hollandr on Jun 3, 2008 11:18:09 GMT
>the God of the bible is only one, revealing himself in many ways.
I can see that is convenient theologically but a close reading of the Old Testament will show sentences in which 2 gods appear. For example:
Deuteronomy 32 8 When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel. For the Lord's portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.
The Most High divided the peoples of the world and Adonai (the lord) received as his portion only the children of Israel, specifically the off-spring of Jacob.
So when the Lord said they were his chosen people he was being a bit careful with the truth - the people were chosen not by him but by The Most High. No wonder the Lord was a jealous god - he possessed very few people
And Lord was pretty keen on violence - on occasion requiring the killing of women and children and all the animals, razing the cities and salting the fields - not really a lot of reward there for the victorious soldiers. These days such a war leader would be guilty of crimes against humanity
I think I prefer a God of love
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Post by corab on Jun 3, 2008 11:25:53 GMT
Hi Angelo, And welcome to the forum. I've read the posts on this thread so far and have some thoughts, but first I would like to ask you a question -- not to be answered lightly, but after serious consideration: "What is your objective in posting here? What do you want to achieve?" I look forward to your reply. Cora It's simple : to testify my faith. And I commend you for it. What is it about what you think you know about freemasonry that led you to testify here, and how do our responses contribute to or obstruct you in testifying your faith?
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Post by elshamah on Jun 3, 2008 11:29:27 GMT
elshamah You have come here with the expressed intention of telling Freemasons that Freemasonry is evil. I have battled with many Christian Fundies over the years. They all follow the same path. They think Freemasonry is evil, Catholicism is evil, Islam is evil. Well most everyone is evil except themselves. no, we all are evil, i am evil as well. But i have found forgiveness for my sins, because i trust and believe in Jesus Christ. I do not consider me a dime better than anyone else. Only one is good : God. In fact, i don't think anybody can convince me freemasonry has God's aproval. So you believe, what these sites claim, is untrue ? Lets have a look at your Jahbulon jibe: what matters, is not, what sacred book is on display, but what is confessed and believed. there are indeed enough reasons to think it is a religion, despite it's not admitted : www.icwseminary.org/masonryreligion.htmthis does not proof it is not a religion. in fact, it is a very strange religion. on this, i agree. well, good that you ask. A freemason in fact worked for me. He is from Fortaleza, north east of brazil. He has Kiosk. His name is Odair. I visit, and left my car stickers consigned at his kiosk, when i worked with that, some time ago. Then , i did need a seller, and he offered himself, to visit all my clients, every two month, in many cities in the north east. I had a severe quantity control. After six month, his stock report did not match with the quantity he should have in stock. I took the airplane and went to visit him. We did count all stickers together, and 1200 stickers were not reported. His intention was clear. So i took all stickers back, and stopped to work with him. After a while, he called me, and asked for a refund for the money, he did not made, because i stopped to work with him. Unfortunately, i did not make a report at the police, since i did not imagine, he would go that far. Fact is, he screwed me, and i had to pay. Well, if this is the nouble moral, freemasons are teached to follow, then i can only say : no thanks !!
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Post by corab on Jun 3, 2008 11:32:13 GMT
Brothers et al, Please forgive my breaking of my usual silence. This Satan worshiper responded to my post and it requires that I do G-d's work in this moment. since i do not see any seriousity in your post, i won't answer you. When you do not see something, does that mean you believe it is not there?
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FireMist
Member
Then rally boys, and hasten on.To meet our Chiefs at the Green Dragon.
Posts: 293
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Post by FireMist on Jun 3, 2008 11:36:41 GMT
Agreed...ugly because his posts are full of hate....I think prometheus had it right...
There is only one who can communicate as such, ...to veil such hate with apparent white light of truth which is actually a mirror reflecting light to disguise the darkness behind.
and is why elshamah has refused to comment on those particular posts.
A famous quote comes to mind;
"We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light." Plato
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Post by corab on Jun 3, 2008 11:39:44 GMT
In fact, i don't think anybody can convince me freemasonry has God's aproval. That much was obvious, but have you tried asking Him? Or do you accept the word of a long chain of human beings whom have translated God's word over a long, long period of time? Do you believe reading the Bible is the only way to experience God, or are you open to receiving Him into your heart and letting Him speak to you directly?
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Post by hollandr on Jun 3, 2008 11:53:37 GMT
It is tragic when humans are taught to believe that they are evil
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Post by maximus on Jun 3, 2008 12:09:33 GMT
It is tragic when humans are taught to believe that they are evil The concept of "original sin," which was introduced into Christian dogma in the middle ages, has been a bane to the human psyche since it's conception. It encourages self-hatred, and contributed to the oppression of women as being the cause of the fall of mankind. A god who creates beings only to torture and condemn them for using the abilities he created them with is no god, but a devil in disguise.
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Post by droche on Jun 3, 2008 12:22:09 GMT
I so much agree with Tamrin that we should not be giving this guy fuel for his fire, but I can't help but one more question: In the four pages of the back and forth on this I have not seen anything by you, Angelo, what specifically it is about Freemasonry that you find objectionable. You say that it is satanc or inspired by satan or some such thing. How? What else? You mention someone who worked for you who is a Mason that apparently stole from you. That's bad; if true, he should go to jail and be expelled from Freemasonry, but how does that relate to specific things about Freemasonry itself that are evil, as you think? There are good Masons and there are bad Masons; there are good fundamentalist Christians and bad fundamentalist Christians. I don't feel that fundamentalist Christianity is bad just because there are a few bad ones. So what exactly is it about Freemasonry that you find so evil?
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Post by gipsyrose on Jun 3, 2008 13:44:13 GMT
Elshamah
I considered very carefully before I asked to become a freemason. My experience to date is that God is very much at the centre of what freemasonry is about, and my involvement in freemasonry has deepened my understanding of the Christianity that has been fundamental to my life from the time I was born to parents deeply involved with the church. I know that each of us who are freemasons speaks from the truth of our experience that there is far more to freemasonry than many who have not asked to join realise.
I wish you well in your journey.
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Post by elshamah on Jun 3, 2008 14:45:08 GMT
since i do not see any seriousity in your post, i won't answer you. When you do not see something, does that mean you believe it is not there? yes, it is what i wanted to say.
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Post by marcopolo on Jun 3, 2008 14:54:09 GMT
While I would not openly discuss my personal faith in lodge, I will do so here as my *ability* to be what I am is being questioned. While this may sound crass, I will be as blunt as possible, speaking Angelo's own language, to prove a point: I am a blood bought, spirit filled Christian. I personally believe that none come to the Father but through the Son. Now, that being said, there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in Masonry that contradicts those statements. Masonry is not, nor does it position itself to be, a replacement for my faith. I have never been asked to renounce any portion of my faith. To put it plainly, Masonry is to faith what the Parent Teacher Association here in the US is to education. They believe education is good, and encourage it, but do not tell you what to study. I can stand completely "unconvicted" before Christ as a Master Mason, and can tell you that many of the charitable acts I have seen and been a part of would have been exactly the work that Christ himself would have approved of. If you have already made an opinion, I would ask WHERE this information came from. If you are not a Mason, it certainly isn't from your experience. You have, my brother, taken false information from others and have not only taken it to heart, but are spreading them. This, as you know, is a sin. If you believe these things, that is between you and God. To continue to bear false witness (apart from pretending to be something you were not in the original posts) is something entirely different. I think if you search the spirit, you must find some level of conviction in these acts. Finally, there is this: Mark 3:22-30 22And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, "He is possessed by Beelzebub ! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons."
23So Jesus called them and spoke to them in parables: "How can Satan drive out Satan? 24If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 26And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come. 27In fact, no one can enter a strong man's house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man. Then he can rob his house. 28I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. 29But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."
30He said this because they were saying, "He has an evil spirit."
There are many, many bible believing, Spirit filled Christians who are Masons. If you are honestly looking for information, I have written a paper which addressed many of your very concerns. It is lengthy. If you are not honestly looking for information, I won't was the time sending it to you.
A short version would be that most of the misinformation you are quoting has been disproved over the years (even by bodies like the Southern Baptist Church) and yet those wishing to sell books continue to bear false witness.
Above all else, as a Christian, please keep your posts respectful, keeping in mind that not only do you not know the hearts of those you are accusing, you do not know the very organization you are accusing of being "satanic". This will represent OUR faith better to the world, and keep your "walk" upright.
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Post by marcopolo on Jun 3, 2008 15:05:10 GMT
Just another thought; (And my apologies to my brethren if this sounds like I am minimizing the degree work)
I, like you, had read about the "secret ceremonies" of Masonry as a Christian. However, all of the men whom I knew to be Masons were both outstanding men and solid Christians. I went forward with my entry into Masonry, and told myself that if I saw ANYTHING that REMOTELY made me uncomfortable, I would walk out immediately.
The lessons of Masonry are in line with any type of "Aesop Fable" where a universal moral is laid out. Treat others fairly and with respect, work hard, put your faith and your family first. Keep your word. Be generous in your charity to those who are unable to help themselves. Help those in need.
I think the fact that the name of Jesus is not used makes some people think they are anti-Christian, other-than-Christian, or at the very least, not Christian.
Ready for the big secret? They aren't Christian, just as Aesop's Fables are not Christian. But I do not keep my children from reading Aesop's Fables as "satanic" because they reinforce a very universal moral (gasp!) not specifically in Jesus name.
I honestly believe you would feel as I did. You would sit through a Masonic degree and say to yourself "That was beautiful. What was all the fear and fuss about? They could have done this during one of my Evangelical services and nobody would have raised an eyebrow"
Seriously, you have been misinformed.
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Post by elshamah on Jun 3, 2008 15:12:52 GMT
In fact, i don't think anybody can convince me freemasonry has God's aproval. That much was obvious, but have you tried asking Him? Or do you accept the word of a long chain of human beings whom have translated God's word over a long, long period of time? Do you believe reading the Bible is the only way to experience God, or are you open to receiving Him into your heart and letting Him speak to you directly? it is in my opinion a dangerous path. I believe in the bible as the true word of God, as it is written : 3:16 Every scripture23 is inspired by God24 and useful for teaching, for reproof,25 for correction, and for training in righteousness, 3:17 that the person dedicated to God26 may be capable27 and equipped for every good work. So , to learn there, and follow the instructions in the bible, is a secure path, in my opinion, and i have choosen to go for this way. And it makes more than 24 years now. Now, something to let clear : I do not hate freemasons, but i have a opinion against freemasonry. This is a BIG difference. Also, if someone accuses me to be a satanist, only on the fact that i have a negative opinion of freemasonry, than i cannot take that seriously. If you find something, that i am saying against God, his word, or spread a doctrine, that clearly evidences teachings not inherent of the bible, than things might change. But as long this is not the case, anyone , that makes empty accusations, cannot be taken serious. In counterpart, everything i say, is backed up by facts.
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Post by marcopolo on Jun 3, 2008 15:18:06 GMT
If you find something, that i am saying against God, his word, or spread a doctrine, that clearly evidences teachings not inherent of the bible, than things might change. I believe bearing false witness would apply here. I agree, anyone making empty accusations cannot be taken seriously. Your arguments against Masonry are NOT backed by facts, my brother. You are taking misinformation and spreading it.
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Post by corab on Jun 3, 2008 16:39:23 GMT
When you do not see something, does that mean you believe it is not there? yes, it is what i wanted to say. Okay ... do you physically SEE God? I do not mean how He manifests Himself in His Creation, but He Himself. Do you physically SEE Him?
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Post by billmcelligott on Jun 3, 2008 16:42:21 GMT
I have no wish to convince you that it has. It is you who wish to convince me that it has not.
Indeed I do, and I have proved it on many occasions, I have caught so called Christians in deceipt and falsehood, the same people who write on some of these sites. They have not been able to prove the same of me.
agreed - that is exactly my point
I will visit your link and reply on that.
In the mean time, please explain to me how 5 million people are members of a Religion and they do not know it. The vast majority of this 5 million also attend Church some of them are Clergy.
Sad to say there is not enough room here for me to document the number of Christians that I could give similar reports of. The truth is there is good and bad in Freemasonry as there is good and ban in the Church.
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Post by corab on Jun 3, 2008 16:49:28 GMT
it is in my opinion a dangerous path. I believe in the bible as the true word of God, as it is written : 3:16 Every scripture23 is inspired by God24 That is exactly the point I'm making -- and Scripture appears to confirm it -- that the Bible is INSPIRED by God. How can the limited human mind conceive the full Glory that is his maker and then convey that Glory in the limited medium of language? The Bible is INSPIRED by God, but not written by Him. Indeed it is useful, but it is not the only source. In fact, I believe that as a source it has become contaminated by those whom commissioned the various translations as well as by those of the various translators. And what of the early church fathers and their decisions as to what did and did not belong in the Bible? What indeed of the Council of Nicea and the core doctrines it decided on? These decisions were made by men, in all their fallibility, in all their weakness. What eventually became known as the Bible is a heavily doctored version of events that took place many, many years before they were first committed to writing. It is easy to see adverse responses as "empty accusations". It is not so easy to turn around and look into the mirror that your "accuser" is holding up to you. No. Fact is what we, Freemasons, give you. Fact is not what your fellow conspiracy theorists decide to publish on the Internet. We know what we're talking about. You, and your fellow conspiracy theorists, cannot possibly know what you're talking about, because you have never experienced a masonic ceremony. That, my friend, is fact.
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imakegarb
Member
One wee, sleeket, cowran, tim'rous beastie
Posts: 3,573
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Post by imakegarb on Jun 3, 2008 17:50:06 GMT
I agree, anyone making empty accusations cannot be taken seriously. Your arguments against Masonry are NOT backed by facts, my brother. You are taking misinformation and spreading it. It is most excellent to see you post, MarcoPolo ;D
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Post by billmcelligott on Jun 3, 2008 17:56:56 GMT
www.icwseminary.org/masonryreligion.htmThe site you quoted relies on quotes from Morals and Dogma by Albert Pike Lets find out a little about Albert: After traveling as far west as Santa Fe, Pike settled in Arkansas, where he worked as editor of a newspaper before being admitted to the bar. In Arkansas, he met Mary Ann Hamilton, and married her on November 28, 1834. To this union were born 11 children. He was 41 years old when he applied for admission in the Western Star Lodge No. 2 in Little Rock, Ark., in 1850. Active in the Grand Lodge of Arkansas, Pike took the 10 degrees of the York Rite from 1850 to 1853. He received the 29 degrees of the Scottish Rite in March 1853 from Albert Gallatin Mackey in Charleston, S.C. The Scottish Rite had been introduced in the United States in 1783. Charleston was the location of the first Supreme Council, which governed the Scottish Rite in the United States, until a Northern Supreme Council was established in New York City in 1813. The boundary between the Southern and Northern Jurisdictions, still recognized today, was firmly established in 1828. Morals and Dogma was traditionally given to the candidate upon his receipt of the 14th degree of the Scottish Rite. This practice was stopped in 1974. Morals and Dogma has not been given to candidates since 1974 Pike was a prolific writer and was learning and developing as he wrote. What all the anti Masonic web sites omit from their descriptions is the preface that Pike wrote to Morals and Dogma "Everyone is entirely free to reject and dissent from whatsoever herein may seem to him to be untrue or unsound."So it was Pikes own esoteric wanderings and possibilities that were contained therein. He uses the word Religion far too often for my liking but it was 150 years ago and the world was a very different place then. What I want to do here is show how selective quotes can bring about whatever the writer wishes to portray. I would suggest that you read the book yourself , you will find it to be a wandering through the possibilities of the human mind and soul. Morals and Dogma on Religion:- p.10 : The Bible is an indispensable part of the furniture of a Christian Lodge, only because it is the sacred book of the Christian religion. The Hebrew Pentateuch in a Hebrew Lodge, and the Koran in a Mohammedan one, belong on the Altar; and one of these, and the Square and Compass, properly understood, are the Great Lights by which a Mason must walk and work. ,,,,,,,,,, The obligation of the candidate is always to be taken on the sacred book or books of his religion, that he may deem it more solemn and binding; and therefore it was that you were asked of what religion you were. We have no other concern with your religious creed. p.16 thought to the thirsty lips of men; to give to all the true ideas of Deity; to harmonize conscience and science, are the province of Philosophy. Morality is Faith in full bloom. Contemplation should lead to action, and the absolute be practical; the ideal be made air and food and drink to the human mind. Wisdom is a sacred communion. It is only on that condition that it ceases to be a sterile love of Science, and becomes the one and supreme method by which to unite Humanity and arouse it to concerted action. Then Philosophy becomes Religion. p. 18 To maintain the established government, laws, and religion, was the obligation of the Initiate everywhere; and everywhere they were the heritage of the priests, who were nowhere willing to make the common people coproprietors with themselves of philosophical truth. p.22 Except to those who first receive it, every religion and the truth of all inspired writings depend on human testimony and internal evidences, to be judged of by Reason and the wise analogies of Faith. Each man must necessarily have the right to judge of their truth for himself; because no one man can have any higher or better right to judge than another of equal information and intelligence. I will conclude with Pikes words on p. 97 Masonry is not a religion. He who makes of it a religious belief, falsifies and denaturalizes it. The Brahmin, the Jew, the Mahometan, the Catholic, the Protestant, each professing his peculiar religion, sanctioned by the laws, by time, and by climate, must needs retain it, and cannot have two religions; for the social and sacred laws adapted to the usages, manners, and prejudices of particular countries, are the work of men.
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