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Post by elshamah on May 31, 2008 22:12:14 GMT
hi all
my name is Angelo. I am swiss, and live over ten years in Brazil. I am a born again evangelical christian. I am open to talk with everyone, that would like to know better my faith. I think, there exist many pre - judgements, that might be clarified. I am not disposed and interested to convert anybody here. This is a personal decision. I am just here to testify my faith to anyone, that would like to know more and understand it better. i do not want to disrespect your faith, philosophy and convictions, and expect the same from you. So who has pre judgements , and has no interest, to change it, i am asking at least to respect my faith.
So now to my first question : what is the reason that lead you to freemasonry , or whatever else has to do with it ? And, what positive do you expect for your life, beeing involved with it ?
Angelo
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Post by hollandr on May 31, 2008 22:35:38 GMT
Hello Angelo
Thanks for dropping by and I appreciate your openness to discussion.
I was brought up a Roman Catholic and educated in Catholic schools for 12 years and believed in all I was taught.
One day, aged about 19, I was walking down the road not thinking of anything in particular when I suddenly knew that I had a soul. I had believed for in a soul for years - but suddenly I just knew, without any shadow of doubt. The existence of the soul was just obvious.
Perhaps that was my being born again.
That knowing had an interesting effect - from that time I found that the priests giving their sermons on Sunday had very little understanding of spiritual things - so I stopped going to church.
I originally joined Masonry to be with people who understood spiritual matters and who wanted to work together in the service of God.
I found that working Masonic ritual increased my experience of how spirit enters humans and enters the world.
I also learned how to distinguish the forces of light from the forces of darkness. This skill is often lacking and the follower of any particular teacher or religion may take on faith (as I did long ago) that what they have been taught is correct and all other teachings are wrong. And of course the longer a belief is held the harder it is to recognise that one has followed a human organisation rather than the Light of God
Cheers
Russell
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Post by maximus on Jun 1, 2008 3:30:01 GMT
i do not want to disrespect your faith, philosophy and convictions, and expect the same from you. So who has pre judgements , and has no interest, to change it, i am asking at least to respect my faith. I would venture the majority of members here are Christian. At any rate, none here would disparage anyone's personal beliefs, although religion is open to debate as to origins, cross-cultural influences, historical accuracy, etc. I am assuming from the tone of your question that you are not a Freemason? What is your imprssion of the faternity? Are you assuming that Freemasonry is a religion, or an alternitive spiritual path? If so, I can assure you that it is neither. Freemasonry is open to all good men (and women), regardless of thier personal faith. All that is required is that one be of good repute, and profess a belief in a Supreme Being and the immortality of the soul. Freemasonry is not meant to replace, but rather to supplement one's faith. It provides a system of symbols whereby we may come to improve ourselves in our relations with our fellowman, and in our own growth as human beings. "It's not about me changing them, it's about me changing me," as a well loved Brother was wont to say.
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Post by billmcelligott on Jun 1, 2008 7:01:04 GMT
Hi Angelo
I am a born again Freemason, I say this because you said " i do not want to disrespect your faith,". Freemasons are not just Freemasons, they do not relinquish their Faith, be it Christian Muslim or whatever to become a Freemason.
I know of no person who has given up his religion to become a Freemason. I have been a Mason for 20 plus years and never in that time has anyone asked me to change my Faith or alter it in any way. I am a Christian, I took my Faith with me into Freemasonry, I was most surprised to discover that my Faith had far more in common with Islam and Jewish Faith than had ever been told me before by any of the Church doctrine.
I was always thought they were completely separate. Did this reduce my contentment with my Christian background? no not at all.
But the most important thing I found out was that these people in Freemasonry cared about me. The Church had never cared about me, if for any reason I did not attend where I was supposed to be, I would get a call, 'Are you OK'.
So on a philosophical level I am sure the Church cares, but with Freemasonry I have found that is interpreted on a practical level. Rather like with a family, you may not get on with your Brothers and Sisters every day, but if something goes wrong they are always there.
While I have found some individuals that think of Freemasonry as a Faith, in my opinion it is not and if at any time it became a Faith, it would loose all the moral and intellectual high ground.
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imakegarb
Member
One wee, sleeket, cowran, tim'rous beastie
Posts: 3,573
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Post by imakegarb on Jun 1, 2008 7:51:22 GMT
Greetings Angelo!
My Daddy is a preacher in the World Wide Church of God.
I am religiously unaligned.
Welcome ;D
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Post by elshamah on Jun 1, 2008 10:56:12 GMT
Hello Angelo Thanks for dropping by and I appreciate your openness to discussion. I was brought up a Roman Catholic and educated in Catholic schools for 12 years and believed in all I was taught. One day, aged about 19, I was walking down the road not thinking of anything in particular when I suddenly knew that I had a soul. I had believed for in a soul for years - but suddenly I just knew, without any shadow of doubt. The existence of the soul was just obvious. Perhaps that was my being born again. Born again in christian terms has another meening. Might i link you to a homepage with a in depth answer : www.gotquestions.org/born-again.htmlI have been catholic in my childhood, and part of adolescence. However, when i started to make fundamental questions about human life, i found them answered in a satisfactory way in the bible. I had however brothers of a evangelical church, which explained me many things. In this case, why did you choose freemasonry, and not a church of other denomination, than the catholic church ? a evangelical church, for example ? Could you explain that further ? Can you explain, how you do that, now ? So how are you shure, Freemasonry is not just that, a human organisation, and not a way to find the LIght of God ? [/quote]
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Post by elshamah on Jun 1, 2008 11:02:26 GMT
I would venture the majority of members here are Christian. that brings up the question : can a freemason be a true christian, and follower of Christ ? might you give me your answer after read this homepage: www.cuttingedge.org/free18.htmin fact, i am not a freemason. Frankly speaking, i think freemasonry is a satanic inspired organisation. why do you think this is necessary ? in fact, these symbols have a lot of meening : www.cuttingedge.org/free19.htm
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Post by waynecowley on Jun 1, 2008 11:25:43 GMT
Oh dear!
Up until your last post you could have been assured of a respectful hearing and honest answers to your questions.
All we ask in return is that the same courtesy is expressed to us.
You have, I am afraid, been listening to others who do not know what they are talking about when you accuse freemasonry of being satanically inspired. It is a line that is often trotted out based on the misinterpretations on the writings of one mason in particular but is based on no fact whatsoever.
I suggest you ask whatever questions you have politely and we will try to answer you honestly
Wayne
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Post by hollandr on Jun 1, 2008 11:40:59 GMT
>Born again in christian terms has another meaning.
I am aware of the meaning attached in evangelical churches
In my case my being born again resulted in direct knowledge of the spiritual realities. I expect that that same experience occasionally occurs in church ceremonies for those wishing to be born again and I expect it will become more common in future.
>In this case, why did you choose freemasonry, and not a church of other denomination, than the catholic church ? a evangelical church, for example ?
My being born again gave me my own contact with the Spirit so I was not looking for people to read from the scriptures for me. I was looking for people who worked directly with the Spirit without too much theology. (I had had 12 years of theological instruction so was pretty good in that area)
>Could you explain that further ?
I had lived in a community of those who naturally attracted the Spirit to themselves and had observed how wonderful things could happen inwardly and outwardly when the Spirit flowed through people and work. I had observed some of the preconditions for that entry of Spirit into groups and individuals and looked to find groups where that occurred.
I did the rounds of the local churches when I arrived in the city I live in and one charismatic church was interesting in terms of how they invoked the Spirit and the people had a good faith but I was not interested in faith but the works of the Spirit. So I kept looking and eventually found a Masonic lodge that attracted the Spirit so joined that.
If I had found any organisation that was effective at attracting the Spirit I would have joined. Perhaps it was purely accidental it was a Masonic lodge.
>Can you explain, how you do that, now ?
It is not hard, based on pairwise comparisons of "grace" but it is better given in direct instruction so that I can check the inner perceptions are working correctly.
If you wish you can start the learning process by asking someone to obtain for you some teachings from various sources and give them to you unidentified in sets of two and then you read them and determine which has the most Spirit. When you get good at that it is not hard to apply that test to organisations
>So how are you sure, Freemasonry is not just that, a human organisation, and not a way to find the LIght of God ?
Some Masonic organisations are more human than spiritual and if you read the posts here you will find that discussed in various ways - but without criticising particular Grand Lodges. Churches are the same. Some good, some ordinary and some you should run away from.
But Freemasonry is greater than any outer organisation just like Christianity is greater than any church.
The Spirit seeks the upright and flows through them to do its work in the world.
Of course some may consider that faith alone is sufficient and that is their choice. For myself I am happy to earn my keep in the world of Spirit
Cheers
Russell
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Post by elshamah on Jun 1, 2008 11:52:59 GMT
>Born again in christian terms has another meaning. I am aware of the meaning attached in evangelical churches In my case my being born again resulted in direct knowledge of the spiritual realities. I expect that that same experience occasionally occurs in church ceremonies for those wishing to be born again and I expect it will become more common in future. >In this case, why did you choose freemasonry, and not a church of other denomination, than the catholic church ? a evangelical church, for example ? My being born again gave me my own contact with the Spirit so I was not looking for people to read from the scriptures for me. I was looking for people who worked directly with the Spirit without too much theology. (I had had 12 years of theological instruction so was pretty good in that area) >Could you explain that further ? I had lived in a community of those who naturally attracted the Spirit to themselves and had observed how wonderful things could happen inwardly and outwardly when the Spirit flowed through people and work. I had observed some of the preconditions for that entry of Spirit into groups and individuals and looked to find groups where that occurred. I did the rounds of the local churches when I arrived in the city I live in and one charismatic church was interesting in terms of how they invoked the Spirit and the people had a good faith but I was not interested in faith but the works of the Spirit. So I kept looking and eventually found a Masonic lodge that attracted the Spirit so joined that. If I had found any organisation that was effective at attracting the Spirit I would have joined. Perhaps it was purely accidental it was a Masonic lodge. >Can you explain, how you do that, now ? It is not hard, based on pairwise comparisons of "grace" but it is better given in direct instruction so that I can check the inner perceptions are working correctly. If you wish you can start the learning process by asking someone to obtain for you some teachings from various sources and give them to you unidentified in sets of two and then you read them and determine which has the most Spirit. When you get good at that it is not hard to apply that test to organisations >So how are you sure, Freemasonry is not just that, a human organisation, and not a way to find the LIght of God ? Some Masonic organisations are more human than spiritual and if you read the posts here you will find that discussed in various ways - but without criticising particular Grand Lodges. Churches are the same. Some good, some ordinary and some you should run away from. But Freemasonry is greater than any outer organisation just like Christianity is greater than any church. The Spirit seeks the upright and flows through them to do its work in the world. Of course some may consider that faith alone is sufficient and that is their choice. For myself I am happy to earn my keep in the world of Spirit Cheers Russell The bible mentions two spirits : 1.corinthians 2.12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
So the bible makes distinction between the spirit of this world, and the spirit of God. How do you know that it is the spirit of God manifested and attracted in freemasonry gatherings, and not the spirit of this world ?
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Post by hollandr on Jun 1, 2008 11:54:06 GMT
>i think freemasonry is a satanic inspired organisation.
When I was young I believed that if I went to a high Anglican service with a liturgy identical to that of my Catholic church then I would go to hell forever.
These days I am not sure God was of the same opinion
But the belief kept me in line
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Post by hollandr on Jun 1, 2008 11:55:50 GMT
>So the bible makes distinction between the spirit of this world, and the spirit of God. How do you know that it is the spirit of God manifested and attracted in freemasonry gatherings, and not the spirit of this world ?
As I indicated above - the process of spiritual rebirth allows one to distinguish the things of the Spirit
Otherwise one must ask others and read the scriptures
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Post by Siontific on Jun 1, 2008 13:04:47 GMT
Surely this thread belongs on the "Opposing Views on Freemasonry" board. Let's keep things in their proper place.
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Post by billmcelligott on Jun 1, 2008 14:13:21 GMT
Surely this thread belongs on the "Opposing Views on Freemasonry" board. Let's keep things in their proper place. Not if we take the original question at face value. But unfortunately it seems this is another Christian fundy that thinks its OK to cheat and be deceptive. Oh well ! Wolf in sheeps clothing? I would suggest you read the Bible to profess to follow Angelo and ask yourself would Jesus pretend to be something he is not. ? Angelo is here to promote his own views and not interested in discussion.
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Post by maximus on Jun 1, 2008 14:15:15 GMT
I wiil say this: There was a time when we had rule by the Church, when there were no opposing views. It was called The Dark Ages. For a millinium, mankind subordinated his reason to the chains of blind faith, to the ultimate theocracy of the Church. The result was ignorance, disease, poverty and the enslavement of the mind.
All of the high achievements of the ancient world were held to be of the Devil, inventions and artwork smashed, books and scrolls burnt, philosophers and physicians murdered. To what end? To force the human race to wallow in shame and misery?
It was Freemasons, at first in secret (the Invisible College), later more openly (The Royal Society), who helped to bring mankind out of the pits of misery that we were mired in because of "faith." The Enlightenment brought a plethora of scientific and philosophic discovery, that led to the establishment of the freedoms that we enjoy today in the West.
The "Church" didn't bring it to us, but the unfettered human mind.
One of the benifits that derived from the efforts of those great men is that of Freedom of Religion.
Another is Freedom of Association.
A side benifit of our freedoms is a good public education system, in which, if we work hard and pay attention, we learn to think. (undoctronated, I might add, by religious dogma)
Elshamah, I am glad that you find comfort in your religion. Blind faith often comforts the spiritually blind. Realise that, although you have been given the "Great Commission," so called, that the "Christian" methods of confrontation and accusation will avail you nothing with an educated crowd such as you will find on this board.
So I will ask that you give us the same courtesy that you ask from us, and leave the ridiculous accustions of demon worship at the door.
If you wish to ask legitimate questions, or have a decent and respectful conversation. then we will be more than happy to entertain such a course. If, on the other hand, you wish to engage in mindless debates about devils and demons in the lodgeroom, be prepared for the consequences.
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Post by maximus on Jun 1, 2008 14:22:47 GMT
But unfortunately it seems this is another Christian fundy that thinks its OK to cheat and be deceptive. Bill, have you ever noticed the similarity in tactics between the Fundy Christian and the Fundy Islamist? They both think that it is okay to decieve the "unbeliever" in order to achive thier own end. Hmmm... Reminds one of a certain Skip Sampson, does it not?
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Post by leonardo on Jun 1, 2008 17:09:19 GMT
It is a shame the thread starter has responded so disrespectfully to some very insightful responses.
My own experience with Freemasonry is that becoming a member has instilled a greater respect and understanding of the Holy Bible. Prior to this I only looked at it as an important historical document with little real significance for my life. Now, I see it as a guiding light.
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Post by elshamah on Jun 1, 2008 18:10:04 GMT
If, on the other hand, you wish to engage in mindless debates about devils and demons in the lodgeroom, be prepared for the consequences. So , that means, you are threatening me ?
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Post by billmcelligott on Jun 1, 2008 18:39:02 GMT
If, on the other hand, you wish to engage in mindless debates about devils and demons in the lodgeroom, be prepared for the consequences. So , that means, you are threatening me ? Don't be so dam silly, what's he going to do throw an email at you.
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Post by elshamah on Jun 1, 2008 18:45:20 GMT
Don't be so dam silly, what's he going to do throw an email at you. huh, that let's me feel better. Ya never know, with freemasons.....
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