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Post by elshamah on Jun 2, 2008 20:47:48 GMT
Angelo, like another poster, I don't care to debate with you either, for I have found that no amount of reasoning with someone who is against Freemasonry will change their views on the matter. It is a waste of time for both parties. I will only comment that in a post above, you asked, "Can a freemason be a true christian, and follower of Christ ?" That question strongly implies that you think you know what a true Christian is. How can any human on this earth definitively say what a true Christian is? One of the less publicised purposes of Freemasonry is to search for the truth. In my own opinion, I would submit that one who is searching for truth is a "truer" Christian than one who already thinks they know the truth. "Judge not, lest ye be judged." Someone , that is searching for the truth, cannot be a christian. Since a christian has already found the truth : Jesus Christ. As he said : i am the way, the truth, and life. Nobody comes to the father, than trough me. So the true christian is not a searcher anymore, since he has found already the destiny of faith : Jesus Christ. For him, a new chapter of his life has started : to follow Christ, his steps, and do his will. Can a true christian be a freemason ? I don't think so. www.whatisfreemasonry.com/www.scripturesforamerica.org/html2/jm0078a.htmAngelo
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Post by elshamah on Jun 2, 2008 20:51:55 GMT
However, institutions such as Freemasonry are not reform societies, their genius lie in the ability to make good wo/men better: I don't think institutions like freemasonry are able to do that. They would need to have the power to transform human carnal nature. Thats impossible. Only God with his power, through the holy spirit, is able to do that, when somebody is born again spiritually, at becomes a christian. Than the power of sin is broken, and god can start to transform him, and make him more similar to Christ.
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Post by elshamah on Jun 2, 2008 20:53:22 GMT
Hi Angelo, And welcome to the forum. I've read the posts on this thread so far and have some thoughts, but first I would like to ask you a question -- not to be answered lightly, but after serious consideration: "What is your objective in posting here? What do you want to achieve?" I look forward to your reply. Cora It's simple : to testify my faith.
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Post by elshamah on Jun 2, 2008 21:03:12 GMT
The probability of such increases with increases in the amount of indicative agape behavior. Christians are about acceptance, love and doing what is morally right. To be christian is more than that : It is to belong to Jesus Christ. To have Jesus as personal Lord and saviour. To follow him. To ask for his will, and to do it. Christ has done a main work, when he came here on earth : to die for all humanity. But he continues to work through his children, through his folk, through his followers. What is he doing today ? he brings the gospel, the truth, to all nations, to all that need to hear this message. this is the most important thing for us, christians, to do. But also, to love each other, and to do God's commandments. the bible makes distinction between the children of light, and the children of dark, or , children of god, and children of the devil. All, that do not make part of the family of God, that willfully reject Christs Gospel, are not making part of the family of god, but, subsequently, make part of the family of the devil. There is no middle way. Or it is one, or the other. I do call freemasonry a satan inspired organisation, with goals, that come from satan, not from god. only the fact, that freemasonry claims to be able to " better " men, is a heresy in itself, since only God is able to do that.
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Post by lauderdale on Jun 2, 2008 21:14:11 GMT
I can only speak for my own experiences but becoming a Freemason 20 years ago strengthened my Faith in God and the Christian Degrees did the same for my belief in Jesus Christ.
My move 2 years ago into the more Mystical and Esoteric world of Co-Masonry put me in contact with the Liberal Catholic Church which I have joined, from being a High Anglican (Episcopal) ,and am indeed now in Minor Orders in the LCC and may, God Willing, in due time go on to being Ordained.
So I can say with a firm but humble confidence that being a Freemason has strengthened my Faith as a Christian and I can see no problem with being both a Mason and a follower of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
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Post by leonardo on Jun 2, 2008 21:28:50 GMT
So I can say with a firm but humble confidence that being a Freemason has strengthened my Faith as a Christian and I can see no problem with being both a Mason and a follower of Our Lord Jesus Christ. I can attest to a similar experience. But I believe Truth is very relevant. We believe we are, for example; "Born again," we even "know" we are. But are we? My position is if we genuinely believe something to be true, then it is true for those of us who believe such. I know that's a rather simplistic view to hold, but this perspective allows me to appreciate and respect the beliefs of others, which wasn't always the case for me - there was a time when I thought such beliefs, any beliefs, for that matter, were nonsense, more wishful thinking that anything. But now, however, I see things differently. Freemasonry has opened up my mind to so much in the short time I have been a member; it has given me a far, far deeper appreciation for, for example, the Bible. In fact, these past few months in particular have been of enormous help in deepening my awareness but the writings of Vincent Cheung (a Christian) has certainly opened my eyes in regards the nature of Jesus. The link below is, I believe, relevant to this discussion: www.vincentcheung.com/books/bornagain.pdf
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Post by droche on Jun 2, 2008 23:15:30 GMT
Angelo, like another poster, I don't care to debate with you either, for I have found that no amount of reasoning with someone who is against Freemasonry will change their views on the matter. It is a waste of time for both parties. I will only comment that in a post above, you asked, "Can a freemason be a true christian, and follower of Christ ?" That question strongly implies that you think you know what a true Christian is. How can any human on this earth definitively say what a true Christian is? One of the less publicised purposes of Freemasonry is to search for the truth. In my own opinion, I would submit that one who is searching for truth is a "truer" Christian than one who already thinks they know the truth. "Judge not, lest ye be judged." Someone , that is searching for the truth, cannot be a christian. Since a christian has already found the truth : Jesus Christ. As he said : i am the way, the truth, and life. Nobody comes to the father, than trough me. So the true christian is not a searcher anymore, since he has found already the destiny of faith : Jesus Christ. For him, a new chapter of his life has started : to follow Christ, his steps, and do his will. Can a true christian be a freemason ? I don't think so. www.whatisfreemasonry.com/www.scripturesforamerica.org/html2/jm0078a.htmAngelo Well, I shall not be so presumptuous and arrogant to determine who may be allowed to be a Christian. There was a certain humbleness about Jesus Christ, but I find such humbleness lacking in so many who say that they have accepted Him. He especially did not condemn people the way I find others do who say they have accepted Him and follow Him.
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Post by maat on Jun 3, 2008 0:58:01 GMT
<Christ has done a main work, when he came here on earth : to die for all humanity.>
…. so that I can assume that as a follower of Christ, and taking His example, you would be willing to die for us?
<freemasonry claims to be able to "better" men, is a heresy in itself, since only God is able to do that.>
Freemason en-ables good men to become better because it demonstrates that the spark of God, the Christ, lives in our hearts, which we refer to as a safe and sacred repository, and a place to which we should refer when in difficulty or doubt.
You know what I know?
I know that sooner or later, this life or next or a million from now (now that is re-born again!) - every single last person ever created will reach 'Heaven'. Why - because an angel told me so.
Maat
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Post by hollandr on Jun 3, 2008 1:17:18 GMT
Angelo
I think that you have made it clear that you follow an exclusive belief system
I used to follow one too years ago - mine excluded you as saved and quite possibly yours excluded me also from being saved.
Similar feuds operate between Masonic organisations but here on this forum we try to look past all that and seek the brotherhood of man (and woman) under the fatherhood of God.
Perhaps I might draw your attention to the traditional saying about catching more flies with honey than vinegar - assuming of course that your intent is to engage in a mutually constructive dialogue
If you believe that there is nothing to be learned here then I am not sure why you think that those who post here will want to engage with you
If you wish to engage in mutually beneficial discussion then many here will be pleased to oblige
Best wishes
Russell
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Post by elshamah on Jun 3, 2008 2:09:47 GMT
I can only speak for my own experiences but becoming a Freemason 20 years ago strengthened my Faith in God and the Christian Degrees did the same for my belief in Jesus Christ. My move 2 years ago into the more Mystical and Esoteric world of Co-Masonry put me in contact with the Liberal Catholic Church which I have joined, from being a High Anglican (Episcopal) ,and am indeed now in Minor Orders in the LCC and may, God Willing, in due time go on to being Ordained. So I can say with a firm but humble confidence that being a Freemason has strengthened my Faith as a Christian and I can see no problem with being both a Mason and a follower of Our Lord Jesus Christ. Well, fact that you are joining a church, whatever congregation, does not matter, does not meen anything. There are really many excellent sites on the internet, that clarify in a very indepth and serious way, why a freemason cannot be a christian. If this is of any concern for you, and if this is a serious matter for you, i suggest you to take some time, and to study the reasons, why freemasonry cannot go hand in hand with the christian faith. i wont direct you to one single site, but link you to all sites, google shows, when searching in regard of this question : www.google.com.br/search?hl=pt-BR&q=can+a+freemason+be+a+christian+%3F&btnG=Pesquisa+Google&meta=i doubt you will continue to hold the same standpoint, if you are unbiased, and sincere to yourself. Angelo
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Post by elshamah on Jun 3, 2008 2:13:07 GMT
Brothers et al, Please forgive my breaking of my usual silence. This Satan worshiper responded to my post and it requires that I do G-d's work in this moment. since i do not see any seriousity in your post, i won't answer you.
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Post by elshamah on Jun 3, 2008 2:14:23 GMT
Someone , that is searching for the truth, cannot be a christian. Since a christian has already found the truth : Jesus Christ. As he said : i am the way, the truth, and life. Nobody comes to the father, than trough me. So the true christian is not a searcher anymore, since he has found already the destiny of faith : Jesus Christ. For him, a new chapter of his life has started : to follow Christ, his steps, and do his will. Can a true christian be a freemason ? I don't think so. www.whatisfreemasonry.com/www.scripturesforamerica.org/html2/jm0078a.htmAngelo Well, I shall not be so presumptuous and arrogant to determine who may be allowed to be a Christian. There was a certain humbleness about Jesus Christ, but I find such humbleness lacking in so many who say that they have accepted Him. He especially did not condemn people the way I find others do who say they have accepted Him and follow Him. i am not here to condemn anyone, and don't have even the power to do so. I am here to testify my faith.
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Post by elshamah on Jun 3, 2008 2:20:25 GMT
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Post by hollandr on Jun 3, 2008 2:56:59 GMT
>which God ? the God of the Bible ? or Jahbulon ?
The Bible of course has many gods. For example is the god who required Abraham to kill and cook his eldest son the same god who says "vengeance is mine"? And where do we find a god who says "turn the other cheek"?
St Paul tells us that there are lords many and gods many both in heaven and in earth
As for Jahbulon that is as much a name of God as is Jehovah, or El Shaddai, Adonai, El Elyon, The Ancient of Days, or The Ancient of Ancients
Having been born again in Spirit, I live and breath Spirit and the namings used by the many writers and editors of the Old Testament and New Testament make no difference to my experience of Spirit
My experience of Spirit is that it is inclusive and searches the depths even of God
How can I then speak of the saved and the lost?
Who can be condemned by the Spirit that flows through all things?
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Post by maat on Jun 3, 2008 4:18:13 GMT
Amen!
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Post by billmcelligott on Jun 3, 2008 5:41:32 GMT
elshamah
You have come here with the expressed intention of telling Freemasons that Freemasonry is evil. I have battled with many Christian Fundies over the years. They all follow the same path. They think Freemasonry is evil, Catholicism is evil, Islam is evil. Well most everyone is evil except themselves.
You are here not to engage in debate because your mind was already set, as demonstrated by your own words. here are lines from the 15 posts you have made here.
10 lines from 15 posts, not much doubt is there that what I say above is true. You have set links to most of the main anti Masonic sites on the internet. You omit to disclose that most of them make a living out of selling you the answer to the evils in the world.
Its the old Elmer Gantry scam, "the end of the world in here, but if you buy this bottle of slurp, you may just survive".
Lets have a look at your Jahbulon jibe:
After a good deal of indepth research my pal came up with this explanation.
(1) “J” = a shortened form of “Yahweh” or “Jehovah.” (2) “B” = another form of “ba’al,” translated as “husband” throughout most of the Old Testament, but also translated as “master” in Exodus 22:8, and Judges 19:22-23. (3) “O” = the same name God gave Moses when questioned, “whom shall I say has sent me?” The fact that this is a name for God is clear from the passage in Hosea 12:4, translating “house of On” from the Septuagint Greek version, which corresponds to the Hebrew “Bethel,” which means “House of God.”
It is a made up name, probably concocted to appease each of the main Abrahamic Faiths that make up the membership of Freemasonry.
However in all the Masonic meeting I have attended the 'Bible'-'New/Old Testament' is on display, once only have I seen the Koran, that was when a Muslim Brother was made a Worshipful Master.
For any of your argument to have any credibility you must first make Freemasonry a Religion. If you can not make that first step all your other accusation falls.
Freemasonry does not ask you to leave your Faith, it does not have anything to replace your faith with, throughout all the ritual it references Abraham, Moses, Solomon, David, and the descendants thereof. This is simple to explain because all of the main story patterns are taken directly from the Bible. The additional Orders of Freemasonry take the Christian parts of the Bible and members of those Orders have to testify they believe in Christ and the Holy Trinity.
Now it is a very strange religion that had no doctrine other than that laid down in the Bible, a strange religion that does not ask you to forego your existing religion, a strange religion that will welcome all religions to come and join in a universal Brotherhood and bring your Faith with you.
Lets use the Bible then:
So we see that Judgement of others is not good, that you Judge the Tree by the fruit that it produces, so I ask you elshamah, how many Freemasons do you actually know. Have you witnessed their conduct in the community , their treatment of others. do they care for other people are they Charitable and kind.
Answer these questions with honesty and sincerity and then compare those answers with your web site descriptions.
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Post by iontas on Jun 3, 2008 7:42:20 GMT
I think that everyone can place an opinion - and I believe that everyone is entitled to one. But some things are best kept close to myself. All over the world people are fighting over religion and what each person believes in ,and what others think they should.
Should I believe in a light bulb and it floats my boat ... then it suits me. And no one else has the right point the finger to what I believe in. I will listen but it doesn't say I have to take it on board but I will respect what other comments are made.
Iontas __________________________________ 2º - and still learning to walk not ready to run just yet
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Jun 3, 2008 8:04:19 GMT
Why do we persist in fueling this adversary? Angelo has demonstrated his mind set and it is ugly.
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Post by elshamah on Jun 3, 2008 10:48:58 GMT
>which God ? the God of the Bible ? or Jahbulon ? The Bible of course has many gods. For example is the god who required Abraham to kill and cook his eldest son the same god who says "vengeance is mine"? And where do we find a god who says "turn the other cheek"? St Paul tells us that there are lords many and gods many both in heaven and in earth As for Jahbulon that is as much a name of God as is Jehovah, or El Shaddai, Adonai, El Elyon, The Ancient of Days, or The Ancient of Ancients Having been born again in Spirit, I live and breath Spirit and the namings used by the many writers and editors of the Old Testament and New Testament make no difference to my experience of Spirit My experience of Spirit is that it is inclusive and searches the depths even of God How can I then speak of the saved and the lost? Who can be condemned by the Spirit that flows through all things? the God of the bible is only one, revealing himself in many ways. For our struggle22 is not against flesh and blood,23 but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world rulers of this darkness,24 against the spiritual forces25 of evil in the heavens.26these rulers and powers, however, are not God, but fallen angels, creatures of the almighty God, that rebelled against him, and now make war against us.
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Post by lauderdale on Jun 3, 2008 11:01:35 GMT
A fair point Bro Tamrin. For my part I merely stated my own experiences and that far from finding Freemasonry to in anyway conflict with my being a Christian I found that it enhanced and augmented my Faith and that it has been a worthy handmaiden thereunto.
Now I don't expect that Angelo will accept this and to be honest I couldn't care less if he does or not. However I felt that I should state my case. As Martin Luther once said, "On this I stand, I can do no other"
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