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Post by hollandr on Jun 14, 2008 3:30:43 GMT
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Post by elshamah on Jun 14, 2008 3:52:48 GMT
>i leave it to you to start. Angelo Earlier in this thread when I provided some interesting verses you explained that: - I was blaspheming - I needed to read lots of "versicals" and learn how to interpret. But you did not show how that would work Perhaps you would be so kind as to demonstrate with this short verse. I repeat it here for your convenience and because I love reading it Psalms 82:6 Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. 7 But ye shall die like men if you want a indepth understanding , just google. information on a finger click ;D www.fairlds.org/Bible/Reconsidering_Psalms_82_6.html
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Post by AndyF on Jun 14, 2008 3:57:24 GMT
he wanted your thoughts, not an explanation. I'm sure he has his understanding of it already.
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Tamrin
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Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Jun 14, 2008 4:24:30 GMT
A bit too dry and academic for my liking P.S., One thing I hope we gain from all this is the importance of distinguishing reputable sites from junk ones. Even among our number, we find on other threads outlandish references to conspiracy theories, ostensibly proven on tin-foil hat type sites.
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Post by maximus on Jun 14, 2008 4:33:12 GMT
he wanted your thoughts, not an explanation. I'm sure he has his understanding of it already. The collective has no thoughts of it's own. It has been assimilated.
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Post by hollandr on Jun 14, 2008 5:38:52 GMT
Angelo has kindly pointed out the even more interesting earlier part of the Psalm:
God stands up in the Assembly of El in the midst of the gods he judges
Now the explanation seems to be:
- find another translation that does not use the word "gods" - the gods are actually men
The hebrew version is pretty clear:
82:1 A psalm of Asaf: Elohim [God] stands in the divine assembly; there with the elohim [judges], he judges:
Here the same word is used for God as for gods so Angelo I find it difficult to accept such a superficial avoidance as provided by your link.
In any case the provided answer only works if the reader is ignorant of Corinthians:
1Co 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
In this verse we are usually told that the gods and lords are the love of money
Come on Angelo show me how to interpret without blaspheming
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Jun 14, 2008 6:35:05 GMT
Suppose that a group of pagans got together and decided that they wanted to form a men’s club and each man independently decided that he wanted to start every meeting with a prayer to his demon god. They could all agree to this, but they would have a rough time selecting a name which all could embrace. Hindus would want to worship Vishnu, and of course, the men of other pagan religions would want to worship their demon god by the name they commonly use. You consider Vishnu to be a demon We read:Hindus believe that Krishna was the eighth "avatar" or incarnation of the god Vishnu - one of the Hindu deities in the Hindu trinity. Hindu scriptures state that Krishna "appeared in all the fullness of his power and glory." Krishna was born sometime between 900 and 1200 B.C. and his religious teachings can be found in the Bhagavad-Gita, one of the sacred texts in Hinduism. The karmic similarities between Jesus and the Hindu messiah named Krishna (1200 B.C.) are many. There over one hundred similarities between the Hindu and Christian saviors which could easily fill a volume. Some of these similarities are apocryphal which means their source comes from the extra-canonical scriptures of Hinduism. Identical Life Experiences
(1) Krishna was miraculously conceived and born of the Virgin Devaki ("Divine One") as a divine incarnation. (2) He was born at a time when his family had to travel to pay the yearly tax.
(3) His father was a carpenter yet Krishna was born of royal descent.
(4) His birth was attended by angels, wise men and shepherds, and he was presented with gifts. (5) He was persecuted by a tyrant who ordered the slaughter of thousands of infants who feared that the divine child would supplant his kingdom. (6) His father was warned by a heavenly voice to flee the tyrant who sought the death of the child. The child was then saved by friends who fled with them in the night to a distant country. When the tyrant learned that his attempt to kill the child failed, he issued a decree that all the infants in the area be put to death. Writing about Krishna in the eighteenth century, Sir William Jones stated, "In the Sanskrit dictionary, compiled more than two thousand years ago, we have the whole history of the incarnate deity, born of a virgin, and miraculously escaping in infancy from the reigning tyrant of his country." (Asiatic Researches, Vol. I, p. 273). (7) The Bible states that Jesus and family fled to Egypt afterward to escape from King Herod. According to the Christian apocryphal text "the Gospel of the Infancy," the family traveled to Maturea, Egypt. Krishna was born in Maturea, India, hundreds of years earlier. (8) He was baptized in the River Ganges.
(9) The missions of Krishna and Jesus were the same - the salvation of humanity.
(10) Krishna worked miracles and wonders such as raising the dead and healing lepers, the deaf and the blind. (11) Krishna used parables to teach the people about charity and love.
(12) Jesus taught his disciples about the possibility of removing a mountain by faith. According to tradition, Krishna raised Mount Goverdhen above his disciples to protect his worshipers from the wrath of Indra. (13) "He lived poor and he loved the poor."
(14) Krishna washed the feet of the Brahmins and transfigured before his disciples.
(15) Krishna's teachings and Jesus' teachings were very similar. The celebrated French missionary and traveler, Evarist-Regis Hucv, who made a journey of several thousand miles through China and Tibet, stated, "If we addressed a Mogul or Tibetan this question, 'Who is Krishna?' the reply was instantly 'The savior of men." According to Robert Cheyne, "All that converting the Hindoos to Christianity does for them is to change the object of their worship from Krishna to Christ." Appleton's Cyclopedia says this about the teachings of Krishna: "Its correspondence with the New Testament is indeed striking." (16) There is an extra-canonical Hindu tradition which states that Krishna was crucified. According to some traditions, Krishna died on a tree or was crucified between two thieves. (17) He descended to hell, rose bodily from the dead, and ascended to heaven which was witnessed by many. (18) Krishna is called the "shepherd god" and "lord of lords," and was considered "the redeemer, firstborn, sin bearer, liberator, universal Word." (19) He is the second person of the trinity, and proclaimed himself the "resurrection" and the "way to the Father." (20) He was considered the "beginning, the middle and the end," ("alpha and omega"), as well as being omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent. (21) His disciples bestowed upon him the title "Jezeus," meaning "pure essence."
(22) Krishna is to return again riding a white horse to do battle with the "prince of evil," who will desolate the earth.
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Tamrin
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Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Jun 14, 2008 7:06:14 GMT
Just to clarify one more time. There is not more than one writer . i am the only person to write at this thread.
Angelo Thus, that Legion, our messengers of a false god, confirm their servitude to the prince of lies. Let's try a basic, stylistic exegesis: Example A Example B superficially it is easy to refute the arguments. but let us come to the details, to the facts. Let's give us a closer look to the simbols, to the meanings , to the rituals, then we will see what you will be able to refute. let us see, if the anti masonic sites, all tell lies...... Example C i have not read the above mentioned book, that the pastor readed, to have a own idea, for what reasons you claim, the book tells lies. But i can imagine, it is for the same reasons, my counterparts here in a general and superficial way, without examine the details, assert all homepages, i use as base to defend my standpoint, are hoax and lies as well. Same person? Obviously not! If THEY want to be perceived as being full of truth, then we first need an explanation of the deceit with which THEY began this charade: hi all
my name is Angelo. I am swiss, and live over ten years in Brazil. I am a born again evangelical christian. I am open to talk with everyone, that would like to know better my faith. I think, there exist many pre - judgements, that might be clarified. I am not disposed and interested to convert anybody here. This is a personal decision. I am just here to testify my faith to anyone, that would like to know more and understand it better. i do not want to disrespect your faith, philosophy and convictions, and expect the same from you. So who has pre judgements , and has no interest, to change it, i am asking at least to respect my faith.
So now to my first question : what is the reason that lead you to freemasonry , or whatever else has to do with it ? And, what positive do you expect for your life, beeing involved with it ?
Angelo
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Jun 14, 2008 8:37:59 GMT
43 Pages, exhaustively addressing the same tired questions! This is indeed dreary and, while we cannot be certain, perhaps it is a sign of the nature of that Legion with which we are corresponding. As M. Scott Peck wrote ( People of the Lie, p.303): Evil is ugly. Until now we have properly focused on its dangers and destructiveness. But there is another aspect of its ugliness: its small, cheap, tawdry dreariness: 'Imaginary evil is romantic and varied,' wrote Simone Weil in her essay 'Criteria of Wisdom'; 'real evil is gloomy, monotonous, barren, boring.' It is no accident that when C.S. Lewis depicted hell he described it as a grey British Midlands city.
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Jun 14, 2008 9:30:02 GMT
So : who is this GAOTU ?? Allo, Allo! Listen very carefully, I will say this only once: It is a generic title or description, NOT a name, and one which any believer in any Supreme Being would ordinarily be comfortable in attributing to their concept of God. I wonder, does Legion know the description (NOT NAME), 'The Great Architect of the Universe' (TGAOTU), is that used in the First Degree and that each subsequent Degree uses a different description?
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Tamrin
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Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Jun 14, 2008 10:06:42 GMT
lets give a look at
the french official freemason site :
www.gldf.org/content/view/34/43/lang,fr/
principles and fundamentals :
La Grande Loge de France travaille à la Gloire du Grand Architecte de l’Univers.
the grand lodge works for the glory of the grand architect of the universe.
remarkable that despite this declaration, freemasonry claims not to be a religion
So : who is this GAOTU ??
is it the God of the bible ?? the same page gives the answer :
La Grande Loge de France n’exige pas de ses membres la croyance en « Dieu et sa volonté révélée » comme le font d’autres obédiences.
no God, that has revealed himself and his will, is the base of faith of the members of freemasonry. That meens, the God of the bible is excluded as well. Perhaps some deceitful subterfuge here, inspired by the father of lies. That last translation leaves out the bit about the lack of such a requirement applying only to the members of that Grand Lodge (not 'members of freemasonry,' in toto) and of that lack being an exception to the general rule!? It should read: The Grand Lodge of France does not require of its members a belief in “God and his revealed will” as other obediences require.
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Post by elshamah on Jun 14, 2008 11:20:02 GMT
he wanted your thoughts, not an explanation. I'm sure he has his understanding of it already. The collective has no thoughts of it's own. It has been assimilated. are you enjoying to follow 42 pages of a thread, where i just tell assimilated stuff, and nothing of my own ?
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Post by elshamah on Jun 14, 2008 11:43:52 GMT
>i leave it to you to start. Angelo Earlier in this thread when I provided some interesting verses you explained that: - I was blaspheming - I needed to read lots of "versicals" and learn how to interpret. But you did not show how that would work Perhaps you would be so kind as to demonstrate with this short verse. I repeat it here for your convenience and because I love reading it Psalms 82:6 Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. 7 But ye shall die like men The God of Israel is a member of the heavenly council meeting (see 1st.KIng 22.19; Job 1.6 ff), . El The word also means' God 'and comes in V 1 in the context of " community of God " explicitly. The God of Israel also accuses his colleagues of polytheistic gods of serve for nothing, be evil and thus put the world order at risk (V 5b). The penalty (imposed by El or Yahweh ) was that the gods were deprived of their divinity and had to die like people . Against this interpretation goes that the traduction of 'judge' for Elohim is not proved to be correct and this state is entitled, not even the king dared to. Modern researchers therefore pointed out that during the royal period (587 BC) for Israel was that there is not only one God. It would be only one worship, but the people believed in other Gods as well. Therefore, they were also for Israel such a great danger. Only in exile the Jewish came to the idea that there is only one God.
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Tamrin
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Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Jun 14, 2008 12:19:54 GMT
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Post by AndyF on Jun 14, 2008 12:23:25 GMT
Thats the real disturbing thing here. Its sad that the Freemasons on this site waste their time coming into this thread to defend their fraternity, only to have that defense fall on deaf ears. At least they have a vested interest in all this. Whats truely pathetic is how someone can spend all this time arguing over something that has nothing to do with them. All you folks who claim to be elshamah don't understand freemasonry or have any desire to do so. You certainly don't want to join. Freemasonry has nothing to do with you, and you have nothing to do with freemasonry - and yet you waste so much time here arguing about it.
...or are there that many of you that you take it in shifts so that no one has to put in more than a five minute shift?
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Post by hollandr on Jun 14, 2008 12:31:22 GMT
>the gods were deprived of their divinity and had to die like people .
Again the Jewish bible helps us out:
Psalms 82 My decree is: 'You are elohim [gods, judges], sons of the Most High all of you. Nevertheless, you will die like mortals; like any prince, you will fall.'"
That makes it pretty clear that they continue to be gods but are now condemned to die as mortals. Now we can understand St Paul when he talks about gods many.
And we can understand why Jehovah is a jealous god who will have no gods before him - there are lots of competitors.
And who is the Most High of which the gods are the sons?
Is not Jehovah equally a son of the Most High?
Should not then we worship the Most High rather than Jehovah?
And Angelo your English has improved remarkably again
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Post by elshamah on Jun 14, 2008 12:43:25 GMT
And Angelo your English has improved remarkably again good, isn't it ? i am still in a learning process of the english language, and do my best to improve as much as possible
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Post by AndyF on Jun 14, 2008 12:54:22 GMT
Your English may be a little sketchy from time to time, but your ability to brow-beat and bullshit us knows no bounds. There are clearly at least two people using this account.
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Post by penfold on Jun 14, 2008 13:00:10 GMT
It has become clear that 'elshamah' is happy to lie, decieve and be dishonest to achieve what he thinks is right. Not exactly the behaviour I would expect from a christian
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Post by penfold on Jun 14, 2008 13:05:50 GMT
Timely reminder - this thread has become a discussion on religion, something that isn't usually an accepted masonic practice - respect for all religions is a masonic trait and something that is encouraged. I am minded to close the thread down as we have not gone anywhere in nearly almost 50 pages of discussions. Elshamah has shown himslef to be a man of no honour and little intelligence, someone who is unwilling to adit the information he has is false, so any further discussions are like broken pencils. pointless
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