i am a born again, evangelical christian

[leonardo]

I have learned that a closed mind receives no additional light.

[corab]

Jun 8, 2008 20:58:44 GMT elshamah said:

well, you have as well the possibility to compare each one , and you have the possibility to read it in the original language. You can study it and get very accurately to the right meaning of it. I do not think such a effort is necessary.

Wow, what dedication. You call yourself a newborn evangelical christian but you cannot be bothered to take every effort to accurately understand the word of your God?

i have a bible in German, Elberfelder Bibel, wich is VERY accurately translated,

Accurate by whose standards? The scrolls that were selected to form the Bible can no more be 100% accurately interpreted than the writing in Sumerian Temples, or hieroglyphs in the pyramids of Egypt. The languages in which the scrolls were written -- ancient Hebrew, Aramaic and ancient Greek -- are no longer around, and modern Hebrew and Greek can only offer us an approximation of what the source text really says.

and i am shure i get the message the right way.

How can you be sure? Does God tell you you've got it right?

well , i am not a mason, so i do not care. But i would like to know from you, to understand it better.

What makes you want to understand it better if you don't care?

I have learned BTW. a lot at this thread about freemasonry, too.

You have a funny way of demonstrating that.

By the way, are you going to answer my questions? See my post #423 above.

[hollandr]

>yes, indeed, i do have trouble with your question. Why do you think he is vengeful and bloodthirsty ?

Angelo

Here are a few quotes from the KJV

Numbers 16 35 And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense.

Jeremiah 32 4 For thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel, concerning the houses of this city, and concerning the houses of the kings of Judah, which are thrown down by the mounts, and by the sword; 5 They come to fight with the Chaldeans, but it is to fill them with the dead bodies of men, whom I have slain in mine anger and in my fury,

Deuteronomy 32 35 To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste

1 Kings 21 29 Seest thou how Ahab humbleth himself before me? because he humbleth himself before me, I will not bring the evil in his days: but in his son's days will I bring the evil upon his house.

2 Chronicles 34 24 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, and upon the inhabitants thereof, even all the curses that are written in the book which they have read before the king of Judah: 25 Because they have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, that they might provoke me to anger with all the works of their hands; therefore my wrath shall be poured out upon this place, and shall not be quenched.

Exodus 13 15 the LORD slew all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both the firstborn of man, and the firstborn of beast:

I could find lots more if you wish

So here is my question again:

Do you believe that the vengeful and bloodthirsty god of the OT is the creator of the universe?

[leonardo]

22 pages and counting

[Tamrin]

Jun 8, 2008 18:15:31 GMT Tamrin said:

Jun 8, 2008 12:26:20 GMT elshamah said:

Why do you think he is vengeful and bloodthirsty?

Evil Bible.com

Elsewhere, as I will not waste effort being original for our Messenger of a False God, who picks and chooses to which of our questions he, she or they will respond (despite having first challenged us), I wrote:

Abominations

Apart from implications of matters sexual, which may or may not be simply part of a tiresomely typical program of salacious defamation, Asherah’s only ‘abominations’ specified in the Bible appear to have involved her worshippers making cakes; offering libations; burning incense; smelling branches; and weaving hangings for her image. These devout acts, described in the Bible as shocking and appalling, angered and provoked the hatred of her jealous rival, who had formerly been her son and later her consort, El or Yahweh. For instance, we are told (Jer. 7:18):

The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead [their] dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.

Blood sacrifices and burnt offerings were not in her domain, but those of her consort and they continued to be a part of the cult of Yehweh, even after he was differentiated from Ba’al. A biblical furphy which has gained much credence is that of child sacrifices to Moloch. The word ‘Moloch’ refers not to a god but to a 'kingly' burnt offering, to any god, including Yahweh (Olyan, Asherah and the Cult of Yahweh in Israel, pp.11/13). Burnt offerings continued to be part of orthodox Jewish worship long after the suppression of Asherah, (who did not require blood sacrifices). Patrick Tierney, The Highest Altar: The Story of Human Sacrifice (p.395), tells us:

Although Moloch has become one of the great demons of Judeo-Christian literature, there’s strong evidence that Moloch was not a demon at all but simply the name for child sacrifices dedicated to Yahweh.

Human sacrifice was regarded only as being excessively zealous in the worship of Yahweh, in going beyond that which God required (Micah 6:7), rather than being wrong in and of itself. Abraham is celebrated for his willingness to sacrifice his son, Isaac, to his God, "Yahweh" (Genesis 22:2/10) and despite what many have been led to believe, that was not the last instance of such devotion.

Consider, for example, Jephthah’s sacrifice of his daughter, to give thanks for his victory (Judges 11:30/40). Jephthah’s only regret was that the fate fell upon his own child: Anyone else’s child would have been fine! Moreover blood sacrifices and burnt offerings (albeit of animals) continued to be part of orthodox Jewish worship up until the destruction of the second temple and presumably would resume if the temple were rebuilt.

Distasteful as the subject may be, the topic of human sacrifice in the Bible needs to be unfolded in any general discussion of the pre-Judaic, Hebrew religion and particularly when discussing the worship of Asherah. The reason being is that the mention of Asherah worship often conjures up this abomination in the minds of those who only think they know what the Bible says and who think that She condoned it, in opposition to YHWH. In contrast, we read (Exodus 13:1/2)

And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, ‘Sanctify unto me all the firstborn, whatsoever openeth the womb among the children of Israel, both of man and of beast: it is mine.’

And (Isaiah 30:33):

For Tophet [human sacrifice] is ordained of old; yea for the king it is prepared: he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the Lord, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.

In Nigel Davis’ book, Human Sacrifice, he writes (p.61), "Examples can be found in the Old Testament to show that, for all the apologists’ denials, human offerings were not uncommon during the whole history of the Jewish state" (he also provides many examples, pp.60/72). To explore the many examples of individual sacrifice may be gratuitous and unnecessary in the face of the wholesale sacrifice which the conquest of Canaan was said to entail.

Abraham and Isaac

The Biblical account has it that, in their conquest, Joshua and his followers, by command of their God, were to slaughter every man and woman and, in some cases, even the children and animals. The first half of the Book of Joshua is a litany of slaughter, done at the behest of YHWH. For example (6:21): "And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city [Jericho], both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep and ass, with the edge of the sword." Their 'leniency' in sparing some Canaanites is said to have cursed the Hebrews for generations to come. Note, this account is contradicted by the archaeological evidence. Even so, the Biblical writers obviously thought this was how the conquest should have happened. In the same book, we read of the kings of the defeated cities each being hung on a tree until evening (e.g. 8:29). If the life of Jesus was a fulfilment of the Law, his fate suggests a curious association.

Remember too, I Kings 18:40, with the 450 priest of Ba’al whom Elijah had slaughtered, (strangely, the 400 priest of Asherah, also present, appear to have been spared on that occasion). The site is still called ‘El Muhraqa,’ meaning ‘The Place of Sacrifice’ (Tierney, The Highest Altar, p.387). Also remember Josiah’s slaughter of the priests of the high places (II Kings 23:20). All this was done in the name of his new religion.

Elijah competing with the Prophets of Ba'al

Asherah, by contrast, was associated with constructive forces and was the patron of artisans, such as masons. One of Her titles was ‘She who Builds’ and She is said to have made the bricks for the heavenly temple. In Isaiah 41:2/7, soon after asking the significant question, ‘Who raised up the righteous man from the east…?’, we read of the construction of a cult object, condemned elsewhere in the Bible (Jeremiah 10:3/5):

They helped every one his neighbor; and everyone said to his brother, Be of good courage. So the carpenter encouraged the goldsmith, and he that smootheth with the hammer him that smote the anvil, saying, It is ready for the sodering; and he fastened it with nails, that it should not be moved.

Beginning with images of Asherah, the common fate of so-called heretics has been to be accused of licentiousness, (lest the finer theological objections are lost on the populous), and to be broken, burnt and scattered. Thus, has been the fate of the ‘Holy Ones,’ the Kadosh and Kadoshah, (Asherah’s priests and priestesses); Gnostics; Early Christians; Hypatia; The Cathars, Knights Templar, Waldensians and finally remembered among Master Masons.

[Tamrin]

Jun 8, 2008 19:28:34 GMT @leonardo said:

Jun 8, 2008 3:04:29 GMT Tamrin said:

Priceless!

[gasturb]

May 31, 2008 22:12:14 GMT elshamah said:

what is the reason that lead you to freemasonry

Because of its fundamental principles: Fraternity, Morality and Charity

[elshamah]

thank you Gasturb, for your posts.

Marco Polo, with such kind of people you freely accept close brother hood ?

[Tamrin]

Jun 9, 2008 2:33:02 GMT elshamah said:

thank you Gasturb, for your posts.

Marco Polo, with such kind of people you freely accept close brother hood?

I'm sure we all, like me, welcome Gasturb and thank him for his posts. However, from Elshamah's response, I smell a rat! Why should our messenger of a false god uncharacteristically thank someone who has so far posted only once to the thread on which Elshamah has exclusively posted, for saying no more than what he, she or they have already been repeatedly told?

Jun 9, 2008 1:50:53 GMT @gasturb said:

May 31, 2008 22:12:14 GMT elshamah said:

what is the reason that lead you to freemasonry

Because of its fundamental principles: Fraternity, Morality and Charity

Previously, Elshamah had dismissed such observations, asking why anyone, especially a Christian, would 'need' to be a Freemason to pursue such principles!? Has the penny dropped or is s/he being disingenuous? Whatever the case, my Bull S* meter has blown a gasket.

[hollandr]

So Angelo, how are you getting on with the bloodthirsty god of the Old Testament

Personally I don't know why the creator of the universe would bother coming here to slaughter the first born of humans and animals. So I suspect that the creator is not the god of the OT

I await your response but I am starting to wonder if you must concede that the god of the Old Testament is not the god of the New Testament

If so, then your time here has been of use to you

Best wishes

Russell

[maximus]

Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian

Taken from www.evilbible.com/Top_Ten_List.htm (Thanks for the link Phillip).


10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.

9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.

8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.

7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!

6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.

5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.

4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."


3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.

2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.

1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.

[Tamrin]

Jun 9, 2008 4:01:14 GMT @gasturb said:

just to let you know that i made my post without reading so far any of your previous posts so i dont know if i repeat anything that have already been told.

Bro. Gasturb, my apologies if I have given the impression that any criticism was directed at you. Your contribution was warmly and sincerely welcomed (as are you).

[gasturb]

Glad to hear your explanation because i start feeling bad to what i said! Nevermind its over now and so i delete my previous post

[AndyF]

Jun 8, 2008 18:22:43 GMT elshamah said:

i am not offbase. My argument stands, and is compelling. there is no reason to associate with a non-christian organisation, that

1. Do does not give to the God of the bible the honor , he deserves, but to a God with another name.

Some (quite a lot actually) believe that the "God" of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, are the same God with a different name. Each group has their unique way of worshipping him, relating to him, and even naming him. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that those Masons who fall into that category believe the honour is going to that God, via a term that encompasses them all. What may offend you is that those who don't fall into that category, realise that their God is included in that term.

So no matter how you look at it, we're not denying the God of the Bible the honour he deserves.

The stance of Freemasonry is that it tries be a fraternal organisation which holds Godliness in high regard, and would like to convey that without offending or excluding any particular faith. With this in mind, any brother who left Freemasonry because he felt it was at odds with his faith has merely misunderstood, or formed an interpretation of his own which was largely different from the organisation's intent.

Freemasonry isn't neccessarily incompatible with Christianity. You can twist words as much as you like to make it look that way, but we've said from the start, and still maintain, that Freemasonry contains nothing of an anti-christian nature. I hope this addresses the testimonies of former freemasons on those sites you keep linking to.

No one needs to be a Freemason. Certainly lots of people want to be one. The question shouldn't be "why", but "why not?". It wont grant you salvation, or provide you with religious instruction, but it can be a fulfilling way to interact with others who value charity, morality, and Godliness.



I think you would benefit greatly from taking some time out from this forum to have a bit of a think about things. There have been questions asked of you that you did not know how to answer, did not want to answer, or that you answered in a way that perhaps didn't get your point across.

Likewise you keep asking the same questions over and over again despite them being answered many times over by different forum members.

Perhaps its time to stop and contemplate all that you've been told on here, weigh it up against what you thought you knew, and put together a well thought out response that adequately conveys your point. You may even want to think about if you've already made your point, or if there was even a point to be made.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not wishing you to leave for good. I just feel that after 23 pages of repetitive posting we could all benefit from thinking about what has been said already before continuing to re-post the same stuff. Just take some time to think about what it is you'd like to say, and work out exactly how it should be worded. We'll all still be here when you get back

[elshamah]

Jun 9, 2008 3:27:53 GMT @hollandr said:

So Angelo, how are you getting on with the bloodthirsty god of the Old Testament

Personally I don't know why the creator of the universe would bother coming here to slaughter the first born of humans and animals. So I suspect that the creator is not the god of the OT

I await your response but I am starting to wonder if you must concede that the god of the Old Testament is not the god of the New Testament

If so, then your time here has been of use to you

Best wishes

Russell

well, Russell

if you sincerly want to come over your pre-conceptions, my council is: take some serious time, start to read the bible, and eventually a bible, that explains versicle after versicle, so you can understand , why the God of the Old Testament, is the same in the New Testament. I don't think a short post would be able to give you a acceptable answer. BTW. the God , i know, is not the distant GAODU of the freemasons. I have a close relationship with my God, and know, that he is interested in every aspect of my life, and interveens when necessary, and has rich blessings prepared for each one of his children, that love him, serve him, and have a close relationship with him. God loves uns, and wants to interact with us.

[elshamah]

Jun 9, 2008 4:41:12 GMT AndyF said:

Jun 8, 2008 18:22:43 GMT elshamah said:

i am not offbase. My argument stands, and is compelling. there is no reason to associate with a non-christian organisation, that

1. Do does not give to the God of the bible the honor , he deserves, but to a God with another name.

Some (quite a lot actually) believe that the "God" of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, are the same God with a different name. Each group has their unique way of worshipping him, relating to him, and even naming him. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that those Masons who fall into that category believe the honour is going to that God, via a term that encompasses them all. What may offend you is that those who don't fall into that category, realise that their God is included in that term.

So no matter how you look at it, we're not denying the God of the Bible the honour he deserves.

The stance of Freemasonry is that it tries be a fraternal organisation which holds Godliness in high regard, and would like to convey that without offending or excluding any particular faith. With this in mind, any brother who left Freemasonry because he felt it was at odds with his faith has merely misunderstood, or formed an interpretation of his own which was largely different from the organisation's intent.

Freemasonry isn't neccessarily incompatible with Christianity. You can twist words as much as you like to make it look that way, but we've said from the start, and still maintain, that Freemasonry contains nothing of an anti-christian nature. I hope this addresses the testimonies of former freemasons on those sites you keep linking to.

No one needs to be a Freemason. Certainly lots of people want to be one. The question shouldn't be "why", but "why not?". It wont grant you salvation, or provide you with religious instruction, but it can be a fulfilling way to interact with others who value charity, morality, and Godliness.



I think you would benefit greatly from taking some time out from this forum to have a bit of a think about things. There have been questions asked of you that you did not know how to answer, did not want to answer, or that you answered in a way that perhaps didn't get your point across.

Likewise you keep asking the same questions over and over again despite them being answered many times over by different forum members.

Perhaps its time to stop and contemplate all that you've been told on here, weigh it up against what you thought you knew, and put together a well thought out response that adequately conveys your point. You may even want to think about if you've already made your point, or if there was even a point to be made.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not wishing you to leave for good. I just feel that after 23 pages of repetitive posting we could all benefit from thinking about what has been said already before continuing to re-post the same stuff. Just take some time to think about what it is you'd like to say, and work out exactly how it should be worded. We'll all still be here when you get back

if i have made the same question more than onces, than because i have not seen it responded in a sactisfatory way. See my last post to marco polo. Why do you think i made the same question twice ?

[Tamrin]

Jun 9, 2008 11:00:14 GMT elshamah said:

Why do you think i made the same question twice?

Because truthful answers were not what you wanted!?

[hollandr]

>I don't think a short post would be able to give you a acceptable answer.

I was only asking for a one word answer - do you believe the bloodthirsty god of the OT is the same as the creator of the universe?

> I have a close relationship with my God

I expect that is true but it is not what I asked

I start to wonder about St Paul who tells us 1Co 8:5 - as there be gods many, and lords many - perhaps he was telling us something about the jealous gods and lords of the Old Testament

Disconnecting allegiance from the bloodthirsty god of the OT in no way denies the connection to the Creator and in no way is inconsistent with having a personal God. But the theology is a bit difficult on the level of logic

[corab]

Hi Angelo,

Jun 9, 2008 10:58:54 GMT elshamah said:

BTW. the God , i know, is not the distant GAODU of the freemasons.

That's wonderful -- that means we have even more in common.

Because TGAOTU is a symbolic and deeply personal representation of the divine presence in the individual mason's belief system (excluding those of us who do not work to TGAOTU for the moment), the TGAOTU is as close or as distant to the individual mason as that divine presence is. TGAOTU is only a respresentation of that which the individual mason believes in.

I have a close relationship with my God, and know, that he is interested in every aspect of my life, and interveens when necessary, and has rich blessings prepared for each one of his children, that love him, serve him, and have a close relationship with him. God loves uns, and wants to interact with us.

Indeed. And even though I do not care to name or describe the ineffable because I know it to be infinitely far beyond the limitations of verbal communication, I do have a similar experience of that influence in my life.

Let's switch lingo for the moment -- I'm quite happy to call it God if that makes communication easier. I believe God loves all of His creation and wishes to see it reach the possibilities He had in mind for it when first He created it. I also believe He has given us free will, and respects our choices, however much they may hurt Him at times. As a Father, He knows that children need to make mistakes so that they may learn from them. As a Father, He loves His children and will always forgive them when they seek forgiveness.

He will create opportunities for us to learn the lessons He wishes us to learn, but He will not force us to do so. With infinite patience He brings us back to that point in our life where we have to learn that lesson, until eventually our souls surrender and do His will -- willingly.

I don't need to call it God to understand that. I could call it Cloud and still I would know the same.

[corab]

Jun 9, 2008 11:53:35 GMT @prometheus said:

Your game is obvious. You're simply looking at this as a $ free way to get educated in refining your ability to argue with people about what you believe and are using us to find holes in your ability to argue what you truly believe.

Spot on, Bro:. Prom!

You "do not care" about knowing for any G-dly purpose. You merely want to become the best adversary you can be.

Bluff called. And he considers us "satanic"?